SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Discussion about reputation...

    Well, after the crazy rep-fest thread I started, I feel that some people may want to voice their opinions on it, even after it was closed.

    First of all, I kind of started the thread to demonstrate why rep should be disabled in General Chat - I kinda also started it as a fun thing that we could do in good spirits.

    Rep given in GC is not "valuable" so to speak. It's still fun to give and recieve (someone eloquently refered to it as "cookies") but it's not an indicator of quality posts anymore, which is kinda what we want.

    With that said, I think a lot of people are taking the system way too seriously. It's just some points. You can't even do anything with them. The only reason the rep system contains points at all (and not just anonymous feedback) is that it's fun to gather points. Also, if the rep system works, it's also a feelgood-community thing ("I have a lot of rep points - that probably means that people like the stuff I post, and that I should continue doing it") which makes people post more.

    I think some people take the system too seriously. Rep never be an accurate measurement of the "quality" of a member. That's simply is not going to happen and not what it was meant to be. It's nothing more than an anonymous feedback system with bells and whistles when it comes to it. The points are there for fun!

    I've started repfest 2.0 in GC, which should be more in line with how we want rep to work.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  2. #2
    Rabble Rouser bronze trophy
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    427
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Repfest 2 looks to be closer to the level of the intentions of the system. Unfortunately it's still just going to come down to a popularity contest and be no more accurate or useful than what repfest 1 demonstrated.

    Even better, instead of asking for people to give rep to anyone just pay attention as you're using these forums. If you learn something new (whether looking for it or not) or run across something intriguing or especially eloquent then give some rep. But don't post about it and ask others to do the same, it's not different from repfest 1 at that point.

    My 2 cents.

  3. #3
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The point with repfest 2 is to point out good threads, so that you may (or may not) give them rep in the case you did not notice them before(which OFTEN happens to me, even though I spend enourmous amounts of time here). It's a also a place to find good threads.

    That's the thought I had about it, at least.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  4. #4
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    buried in the database shell (Washington, DC)
    Posts
    1,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think, if rep is supposed to be a 'good post' indicator rather than a member indicator then there should not be a public way of viewing how much rep a member has. Period.

    Certainly internally there can be a counter kept, but much like SlashDot’s Karma system having a number value (and even now the ‘excellent’, etc.) visible to everyone (including the user) only invites this sort of behavior.

    Back in the days of FanHome we also introduced a post rating system in which members could rate posts positively or negatively. These post ratings were never visible to the users except for a ‘top topics’ system which showed the highest/newest rated posts/threads (when you rated a post it had an impact on the thread star rating); it turned out to be kind of an interesting way to bring people to more insightful threads.

    And, of course, it was weighted so that when your post was ranked highly then your internal rating went up a certain number of points in proportion to the ranking of the person who rated you. And the thread rating was also in proportion to the number of ratings. Negative ratings were worth ‘less’ than positive ones because it was designed to be more of a positive system than a negative one, although there was weighting that if enough people rated something low enough that things would happen behind the scenes.

    In any rate, I think the rep system as it is now cannot be anything but a member rating system with the rep level being shown to the user (and everyone else if the user so decides). I think there should be systems in place so that I can see most highly rated (and maybe most dubious ) posts/threads in order to make the system meaningful.

  5. #5
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Linuxland
    Posts
    2,788
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I did not participate in repfest1 because I did not feel comfortable giving (or getting) rep without content merit. Perhaps rep should ONLY be visible to those receiving it? That would eliminate the 'competition' and perhaps an incorrect perception of users contributions. At least users have the option to make their rep invisible to other members. I would probably choose to do that even if I had a gazillion positive rep points.

  6. #6
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have not seen any traces of this "competition" everyone is talking about, actually, but if it rep ever gets problems like that, I think the first, best and easiest action to take would be to remove the option of displaying your rep to the public.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  7. #7
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Clarification: Your rep amount is per default NOT shown to the public. You have to enable it for it to show in your profile. Even so, it does not show the exact amount, but only how many green dots you have (you get one per 100 rep points).

    So, in other words, you can only see how much rep someone has with an accuracy of 100 points, which discourages competition.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  8. #8
    Database Jedi MattR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    buried in the database shell (Washington, DC)
    Posts
    1,107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    .. but since the number is shown to *me* it encourages rep fests like we had before.

    That, and what is the purpose of showing it to anyone if it is not "... an accurate measurement of the 'quality' of a member".

    Does that make sense? If it should be a post item only then there should be, in no way, anything shown on a per-user basis.

  9. #9
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Linuxland
    Posts
    2,788
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    .. but since the number is shown to *me* it encourages rep fests like we had before.

    That, and what is the purpose of showing it to anyone if it is not "... an accurate measurement of the 'quality' of a member".

    Does that make sense? If it should be a post item only then there should be, in no way, anything shown on a per-user basis.
    I don't quite understand this. Are you suggesting to rate the posts not the user? How would you rate posts without having it reflect on the poster? Maybe I'm a little dense this morning . . .

  10. #10
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    .. but since the number is shown to *me* it encourages rep fests like we had before.
    Well, first of all, reputation is going to be disabled in General Chat. It has been decided already. So we won't have more of those. Second, the reputation is mostly meant for the individual user, as feedback on your posts. Whether you choose to just gather meaningless points by having your friends give you points constantly, or if you choose to use it as a means of keeping an eye on your post quality, or whether you not use it at all is your business. Your amount of green dots may be misrepresenting, but the real damage is done to yourself, as you cannot use the system for feedback.

    That, and what is the purpose of showing it to anyone if it is not "... an accurate measurement of the 'quality' of a member".
    Because it's fun gathering points and showing them off. What's the point of showing the postcount? None really - it's just there for fun, and to encourage posting.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  11. #11
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Linuxland
    Posts
    2,788
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    Well, first of all, reputation is going to be disabled in General Chat. It has been decided already. So we won't have more of those. Second, the reputation is mostly meant for the individual user, as feedback on your posts. Whether you choose to just gather meaningless points by having your friends give you points constantly, or if you choose to use it as a means of keeping an eye on your post quality, or whether you not use it at all is your business. Your amount of green dots may be misrepresenting, but the real damage is done to yourself, as you cannot use the system for feedback.

    Because it's fun gathering points and showing them off. What's the point of showing the postcount? None really - it's just there for fun, and to encourage posting.
    Glad to hear that rep is going to be disabled in general chat. I think it should also be disabled in the PRWE forum. Even though it 's been pretty quiet in there lately, it will likely heat up again at some point.

    Post count is merely a bean counter. Rep is subjective. Sure they are fun (I like to see my post count go up) but they are quite different too.

  12. #12
    I'm a cook. I knead dough. graphixkid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    NH, USA . . . . . . . . Snowboarder: YES.
    Posts
    1,122
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Does anybody ever SEE the rep point dots someone has? And even then, do they know what they are?
    It's so unnoticable, I didn't even know what it was at first!
    Let the repping continue. It's fun, and just like the post count, you can't derive a user's integrity from it.

  13. #13
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by earther
    Post count is merely a bean counter. Rep is subjective. Sure they are fun (I like to see my post count go up) but they are quite different too.
    I agree that rep is quite different! With that said, I would only trust rep slightly more than postcount for measuring the overall quality of a user, really.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    5,269
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Had to repost:

    Quote Originally Posted by MattR
    I think, if rep is supposed to be a 'good post' indicator rather than a member indicator then there should not be a public way of viewing how much rep a member has. Period.

    ..

    In any rate, I think the rep system as it is now cannot be anything but a member rating system with the rep level being shown to the user (and everyone else if the user so decides). I think there should be systems in place so that I can see most highly rated (and maybe most dubious ) posts/threads in order to make the system meaningful.
    Wisely said . I agree fully. No matter what you say about rep not being meant as an indicator of a member, there are people who will view it as a gauge of a person's standing - if it's truly meant for the rep system to do just this (indicate good posts), then why have rep of a member viewable? Because it's fun? Arguable. Because it's an indication that this member probably makes good posts? Very likely - and so how is that NOT an indication of a member, since a member in a discussion forum is basically tied to his/her posts?

  15. #15
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Because it's an indication that this member probably makes good posts? Very likely - and so how is that NOT an indication of a member, since a member in a discussion forum is basically tied to his/her posts?
    When you display you rep to the public, that is of course some kind of indication of member quality. But seriosuly, how many will REALLY use that as primary means of judging a member? The main point is that it's kind of fun, and encourages posting, just like the postcount. The point with viewing rep is basically the same as viewing postcount, but just a tad bit more accurate. I.e. the important thing is that you are showing it to other people, not that other people are seeing it, if you catch my drift.

    Other than that, it's not very different. We have had little problems with postcount (which should actually inspire to competition more than the rep system, because you can affect it so directly). The only thing we did with it was to disable it in GC, just like we are now doing with rep.

    The competition everyone is talking about simply doesn't exist here - the people here are just too mature, intelligent and nice.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  16. #16
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy redemption's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    5,269
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    OK what you're trying to say is:
    - yes you agree rep is some sort of indication, but you can choose not to display it
    - the main point of displaying rep is for fun (colecting points and such), and it shouldn't be used to determine a person's standing/reliability/etc.

    A little different from what I'd thought the initial goals were, but fair enough.

    I don't take rep seriously (esp. not after recent events), but I do really appreciate it's existence as a way to give feedback (good or bad) and show appreciation to posters.

    Btw, I never talked about competition - I suppose you were replying to somebody else right?

  17. #17
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by redemption
    OK what you're trying to say is:
    - yes you agree rep is some sort of indication, but you can choose not to display it
    Exactly, with the exception that you have to choose to display it, not the other way around. It's hidden by default.

    the main point of displaying rep is for fun (colecting points and such), and it shouldn't be used to determine a person's standing/reliability/etc.

    A little different from what I'd thought the initial goals were, but fair enough.
    Yeah, I know, but I think it's unrealistic to expect more from the rep system. We cannot make it into some official way of measuring people up. That would not only cause trouble in the community but also be quite stupid.

    I don't take rep seriously (esp. not after recent events), but I do really appreciate it's existence as a way to give feedback (good or bad) and show appreciation to posters.
    Yeah, I like the fact that you can dish out "cookies" to people for being kickarse members, without actually taking up the thread with it.

    Btw, I never talked about competition - I suppose you were replying to somebody else right?
    Sorry bout that. A lot of people have been raising concerns that the rep system would become competitive - that's how I read MattRs post.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  18. #18
    100% Windoze-free earther's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Linuxland
    Posts
    2,788
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep could easily become not so much a competition as a mutual admiration clique or popularity contest. Sure, SP members are pretty mature but those ego strokes can be pretty seductive. Guess I'm just a skeptical about it's value and pessimisitic about human nature.

  19. #19
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by earther
    Rep could easily become not so much a competition as a mutual admiration clique or popularity contest. Sure, SP members are pretty mature but those ego strokes can be pretty seductive. Guess I'm just a skeptical about it's value and pessimisitic about human nature.
    Sometimes I think our entire society is an entire big popularity contest.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  20. #20
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    789
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As I has suggested, it could help if there was a 'Moderator Approval' or 'Moderator Queue' system, so that the moderator checks the authenticity of the rep before passing it as valid.

    Much like posts are approved in the eBargain Bazaar.

  21. #21
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Another possible solution (which would require much less work) would be to simply disable negative rep.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  22. #22
    SitePoint Guru
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Universe
    Posts
    789
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    Another possible solution (which would require much less work) would be to simply disable negative rep.
    But that does not solve the misuse of positive reps, does it? The whole purpose is lost - the useful posts may not get a rep at all, and the not-so-useful may get reps if the reader happens to be an accomplice or so. Exactly the case in the repfest...

    Maybe disable the anonimity of the Reputations too? At least for the moderators, so they can track who is abusing the feature and who is not.

  23. #23
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Subhadip
    But that does not solve the misuse of positive reps, does it? The whole purpose is lost - the useful posts may not get a rep at all, and the not-so-useful may get reps if the reader happens to be an accomplice or so. Exactly the case in the repfest...
    Which is why it is going to be disabled in General Chat.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  24. #24
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,235
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Subhadip
    Maybe disable the anonimity of the Reputations too? At least for the moderators, so they can track who is abusing the feature and who is not.
    Many people sign their rep in their comments. I've been known to do this. This too can have its negatives though: a person could see "Hey, I got positive rep from *, let me go give * some positive rep too!", or the reverse situation in which one goes out for justice against someone who gave them negative rep.

  25. #25
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Posts
    5,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think we should be able to give reputation to reputation. If someone posts a comment on the reputation they give, the recipient should be able to rate that comment with reputation themselves.

    That way if someone was hit with negative reputation but felt like they deserved it, they could actually strengthen its influence by giving the negative reputation some positive reputation. If the person who originally gave the negative reputation thought that they had been too hard on the first person initially, they could then give negative reputation to the positive reputation of the negative reputation.
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •