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  1. #101
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    I have not been keeping up with this entire thread, so please forgive me if I repeat what's been said already.

    I don't think it would be right to go with the popular vote now (as has been suggested), despite the fact that I believe the electoral college should be eliminated and the popular vote should be used in the future. The fact is that the electoral college was in place for this election and people went in and voted with that expectation. I live in Texas. It was pretty much a given that Bush would get our electoral votes. Of Gore and Bush, I prefer Bush for this Presidency. However, I really would like a third party candidate, so that's how I voted. BUT I did this with the knowledge that by voting for a third party, I would not be hurting Bush's chances since he was going to get the electoral votes for my state anyway. I heard someone on a talk show give this EXACT line of reasoning to explain how why he voted third party.

    The point is, had people gone in with the knowledge that the outcome would be based on the popular vote and not the electoral college system, they might have voted differently. And in a race where the popular vote is so close, this could have made all the difference. Or not. We can't know and so the outcome should be based on the system that existed at the time of the vote.

    This being said, I also believe that Gore had every right to challenge any outcomes he found legal basis to challenge and that it was appropriate for the recounts required by Florida state law to be conducted.

  2. #102
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PaulaD
    I don't usually express my opinion on these boards, but this time I can't help myself. Somebody here said that Bush was not stupid, I'm sorry, but in my opinion anybody who can only achieve a 2.1 average is not the brightest bulb in the hall. In addition the man was a drunk until he was 40, how many brain cells can he have left! If you're voting for the "Republician Agenda" OK, but lets not try and pretend that anyone really thinks Bush himself is either qualified or in any way up to the job. We just have to hope that we can get through the next 4 years without too much damage being done. Either way, Bush or Gore, it will be really hard for either to get much done. I'm most concerned about the Supreme Court and what will happen there. If the Republicians have all three branches of the government, things look pretty bleak for women, blacks, gays, and anyone who doesn't follow the tradition so-called Christian philosophy.
    The man was not "a drunk until he was 40", he had some problems with alcohol, and made a mistake or two - hardly "a drunk." I also have more respect for him having given it up and for admitting his problems.

    As for a 2.1 grade average - I just flat out do not care - no one said he was stupid, but he's not dumb...he's not a moron.

    Heck - I consider myself an intelligent person, but thanks to a hate of math, I likely will do slightly above average on my SATs - does that make me dumb? I don't think so.

  3. #103
    Skills to Pay the Bills Sparkie's Avatar
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    To clarify things - nobody is calling anyone stupid or dumb here. Just because your opinion and viewpoint on political affairs is different from someone else's, certainly doesn't mean you're any more or less intelligent. Everyone has something to contribute, and everyone has the ability to speak out and be heard. That's why we're a democracy.


  4. #104
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Actually we're a republic. And yes, people are calling each other dumb - a few people in this thread have called Bush dumb. No huge deal, but definitely not accurate.

  5. #105
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    This matter of the electoral college and the popular vote remains widely misunderstood.

    The United States is not a constitutional democracy which elects by popular vote; nor has it ever been,

    Rather, we are a republic of federated states, with each state casting its decision individually.

    Within this framework, it is entirely possible to lose the popular vote nationally, yet win the Whitehouse. It is fully constitutional and proper within our law.

    Changing this implies a denial of states' rights, which is amongst the reasons it has been historically difficult to do.

    This election, however, will bring a great deal of focus to the issue of whether or not we should indeed restructure this method of electing our presidents.

  6. #106
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Actually we're a republic. And yes, people are calling each other dumb - a few people in this thread have called Bush dumb. No huge deal, but definitely not accurate.
    that's calling bush dumb, not each other.

    The Bushisms on slate.com always crack me up.

  7. #107
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    And yes, people are calling each other dumb - a few people in this thread have called Bush dumb.
    lol Chris... just to let you know: now after these elections the whole world thinks AMERICA is dumb... Just because you voted for a cowboy/monkey.

    And that's not what I think, but that's what I hear. I also don't think Hitler was a dumb person. Hitler was intelligent, but there were some screws missing in his head... So I don't say Republicans are dumb, I just think they are not thinking rationaly.

  8. #108
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    you voted for a cowboy/monkey.
    That was unkind and uncalled for.

    Please apologize to both the cowboys and the monkeys.


  9. #109
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    An easy way to villify (sp?) the side you don't like is to compare them to Hitler and call them racist, sexist, etc. I live in Texas and have yet to see Bush erect any concentration camps. No pograms either, with riotous groups breaking the glass on windows of minority businesses. As far as I know, the state has not gone into the houses of any minorities, or anyone else, and confiscated their property without legal reason. Haven't seen government trucks moving people to ghettos (yes, there are "ghettos" in Texas, just like every other state I've seen. This is a social problem that needs more attention, but not Bush's organized attempt to get rid of "undesirables"). We aren't required to wear stars or any other marks designating our religious or ethnic backgrounds, or our sexual orientation.

    I agree, Hitler didn't appear to be the monster he was at first, but if you use the argument that someone may not be what he/she appears, that argument could be used against anyone. Before you go throwing such horrible slanders against a person, you better have reason to suspect something. We should be vigilant against any future "Hitlers", but assuming someone will be one because you don't like them . . . .

    BTW, in Texas, Bush has the support of a large portion of our Latino population. So much for the white supremicist theory.

  10. #110
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by etLux
    you voted for a cowboy/monkey.
    That was unkind and uncalled for.

    Please apologize to both the cowboys and the monkeys.

    I'm a Bush supporter - but that was still funny.

    Christophe - America is not dumb. The most powerful country in the world can't be dumb. Are we the most intelligent? No, but intelligence is only one virtue of many a person can have.

    Hitler was evil and very smart - Bush has some good ideas, and I think he will (if he is given the House) serve our country well, honestly and honorably. If you want to back your claims up, be my guest, but don't just sling stuff around, okay? We've been having a nice debate here so far.

  11. #111
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Oh by the way - nothing at all wrong with a cowboy. Reagan can be called a cowboy, and even if you somehow deny he served his country well (I think he did, personally), you must admit he was intelligent and incredibly eloquent. Monkey, on the other hand, is bad.

  12. #112
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    The most powerful country in the world can't be dumb.
    [/B]
    Just like the most powerful animal can't be dumb?

  13. #113
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    Um..I don't think there's ever been a general consensus that Reagan was intelligent. Great communicator -I guess so, but real bright..up for debate. I don't think that Bush has even one good idea.. but even I am not too worried about his being the next Hitler. I don't think he wants to be, for one thing. But even if he or someone did, while I would never be so foolish to say it couldn't happen here, the United States is well structured, in terms of our government, and our diversity, to combat such a thing.

  14. #114
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    <joke>
    • Put all the candidates into a WWF Style Caged Ring.
    • 12 Rounds or until one man is left standing
    • Sell Pay-Per-View tickets (only $49.95)
    • Everyone can phone in your votes (1-900-vote-4-me $2.00 a minute average call is 3 minutes).
    • All proceeds go to pay the National Debt.


    Let's settle this with a little commercialism.. it is the American Way.

    </joke>

    <another joke>
    Did you hear their selling Talking Al Gore and George Bush Dolls?

    Pull the string on George and it says: "I won the election"
    Pull the string on Al and it says: "Did Not"

    Pull the strings fast enough and it sounds just like a Presidential election.
    </another joke>

    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  15. #115
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Luzer: I really don't think that analogy fits here. So no, not like that at all. Powerful can mean many things - in an animal, it tends to imply it's relation to other animals and how good it is at killing them - in a country, it involves many things, and intelligence is only one of them.

    Reagan not intelligent? I definitely disagree. Do I have concrete proof? Nope, but to me it's obvious. He was incredibly eloquent as well - that's not up for debate.

    As for Bush not having "one good idea" - how about his social security plan? What's wrong with letting people control the money themselves for once, rather than having the government control it?

  16. #116
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    What's wrong with Bush's Social Security program? The probable cuts in benefits and curtailing of the cost of living increase that would go with it for starters. Social Security wasn't designed to be a private investment program and I don't believe that's what it should be. It was meant to provide a minimum income,regardless of individual judgement. Most of my husband's and my retirement, like most of the US now, is riding on our 401K plans, where once we might have had pensions. I think that's quite enough privatization of our retirement resources.

    Reagan..I know lots of people who liked him, voted for him..don't know too many who bragged on his brains, though. Mostly it was more the way people talk about Bush..he's a regular guy, he doesn't make a person feel inferior, he doesn't talk down to us..stuff like that. I don't know about eloquent..maybe. I didn't feel it, but then I didn't agree with much that he said, and was very offended by a lot of it. I do give him the Great Communicator title. He swayed a lot of people, so, he deserved that.

  17. #117
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by psalzer
    What's wrong with Bush's Social Security program? The probable cuts in benefits and curtailing of the cost of living increase that would go with it for starters. Social Security wasn't designed to be a private investment program and I don't believe that's what it should be. It was meant to provide a minimum income,regardless of individual judgement. Most of my husband's and my retirement, like most of the US now, is riding on our 401K plans, where once we might have had pensions. I think that's quite enough privatization of our retirement resources.
    The surplus is there to replace any money lost for current seniors.

    S.S. wasn't "designed" for it? What's your point? Does that mean it's a bad idea, or simply that it wasn't intended to be used for investments originally?

    Here's the only thing that matters: is it a good idea? I think it is. As for think that's enough privatization - then you won't have to invest it! He's giving people a CHOICE - so what's wrong with that?

    Ya know, seeing as how if you take ANY 20 year period in history and ride it on the market's average you ALWAYS end up better off than before - I'd like to take a bit of that money and invest it.

    That's the beauty of it all - you don't have to! But why deny me the choice? Do what you like, but I know if I just do a bit of homework, my money will compound and grow faster than anything gathering dust in a "lockbox" (which interestingly enough is a bad term for it, Gore's plan is totally bogus and full of holes).

    Given those points, I don't see a problem with it.

  18. #118
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Since all y'all folks missed the last two jokes....

    Here is a little ditty for you. Put it to the tune of the Beverly Hillbillies Theme and gather Round....


    o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~
    Lemme tell ya story 'bout a man named Jeb
    counted up the votes and he told a little fib
    folks picked Buchannan when they really wanted Gore
    misplaced some ballots and they threw away some more

    foiled that is
    out cold
    Texas spree

    Well the first thing ya know Al Gore is screamin' "foul!"
    he said "Hell no! I won't throw in the towel!"
    folks said "DC is the place you oughta be!"
    so he loaded up the lawyers and lit out from
    Tennessee

    shills, that is
    loop holes
    votin' farce

    I wish that we could say goodbye to Jeb and all his kin
    cause citizens are losers all, no matter which one wins
    but they'll be comin' back next week with lawyers and daddy
    we'll get a heapin' bellyful of the George Bush family

    ballots count off
    wait a spell
    y'all get no Slack now, ya hear?

    (the Florida Bushbillies by Trickster & Moonowl)
    o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~o/~


    p.s. I'll stop when people agree to disagree.

    p.s.s. Social Security isn't changing... Even with a slim majority in Congress, the elected representatives won't want to upset the AARP. You will win elections by being backed by the AARP. These folks don't mess around with their money.

    p.s.s.s. Don't worry Chris, invest all your money and get a government pension backed job and you won't have to pay into Social Security. If a trillion dollars is removed now, it won't be around for you anyway.

    [Edited by W. Luke on 11-13-2000 at 10:01 PM]
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  19. #119
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I plan to invest anyway, but I still want that freedom.

    That song was hillarious - I recommend that everyone actually sit down and sing it in their head - comes out very nicely! Saw the earlier jokes, as just involved in the debate I suppose - the doll one was the best.

  20. #120
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    I think you should all vote for me. Why should I vote for you, you may ask yourself. Well here is why.

    ::grabs the essay he had to do for english::

    If I am elected president, my first action will be to lower the pay rate of all government officials, even mine. Next, I would make the first Friday of every month National Botètè Day, every Friday will be National Dr. Pepper Day, and I will add a day into the week between Friday and Saturday. This day will be called The Day.

    All you gamers out there want to be able to purchase a Mature rated game if you are under 17 don't you. Well, I will allow anyone to purchase a Mature rated game. If anyone tries to ban you from doing so, I will tie them in a chair with water dripping on their head and make them listen to the I LOVE YOU song over and over and over.

    If I am elected president, I will save Alaska from any oil drilling because what if someone came to your house and killed off you and your family and destroyed you home with telling you. I would sure be angry, though I'd be dead.

    Vote For Me.

    ---------------
    I really did that for an english essay.
    ---------------
    Stuart Briscar Consulting - Free Website Consulting

  21. #121
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    I think that everyone would have to agree that this election is a big, big win for comedy writers globally. It's nice that someone benefits. And we get the laughs, so it's not like we don't get something out of it all.

  22. #122
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Luzer: I really don't think that analogy fits here. So no, not like that at all. Powerful can mean many things - in an animal, it tends to imply it's relation to other animals and how good it is at killing them - in a country, it involves many things, and intelligence is only one of them.
    That's how it is with the United States! We are only powerful because we have been extremely good at killing people or scaring them into siding with us. Atomic bomb, vietnam, korea, yugoslavia, iraq, columbia, nicaragua, the list goes on. As a Bush supporter (and thus a supporter of stronger military) this should be especially obvious to you. Do you think the U.S. would really be where it is if not for our military exploits? The American Empire didn't come into being by asking people nicely to do what it wanted. It came into being by giving an "offer they couldn't refuse" to other countries and bombing the heck out of them if they didn't comply with our wishes. Granted the spread of American Imperialism has been very deliberate and calculated, which does require a certain degree of intelligence, however, without our military might it never would have happened. I guess the question of whether the United States is dumb or not depends on whether you adhere to the doctrines of imperialism and 'might makes right'.

  23. #123
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I didn't even IMPLY that our military has not played a significant role in our success, but that alone wouldn've have cut it. I do not believe we are a dumb country, but I believe we will be if changes are not made.

  24. #124
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    People see the country 'America' as dumb. Not any particular person (except Bush ) and in some way the country 'America' (not you, not the dude next to you,...) is kind of dumb. You destroy the earth (DESTROY) with all those toxic things because it is cheaper that way. An american citizen throws away TWICE as much as a european one and I consider Europe more wealthy than America. Just because no stuff like that is regulated. That is dumb cause you destroy the planet. (also selfish) Why do you want to drive in huge wagons which need heavy engines who really use lots of fuel, while there are speed limitations every where and traffic jams in the bigger cities?? Why do 1 on 2 people need to carry around a gun? Let me laugh when yous ay it will protect you as most groups attack you with 5-6 peopel and you don't stand a chance against them... And now you're going to vote for a man who wants to make the army more powerfull, in a time there won't be any wars anymore. The last war 2 years ago in Youguslavia was Europe's (and Russia's) duty and you came mixing in it which escelated the whole thing. While you live thousands of miles away from it and have trouble cpontrolling Maffia in your own country...

  25. #125
    SitePoint Guru CJ's Avatar
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    I said cowboy because Bush comes from Texas and I said monkey cause I think he is really dumb Not that I intend to say monkeys are dumb...


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