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  1. #51
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    Originally posted by W. Luke
    19,200 ballots in Palm Beach County, Florida were mismarked and discarded by the Florida state Election commitee.
    They were discarded because they were double punched. Every polling place tells you to only make ONE mark for every position. If you make more than one, you need to have that ballot invalidated and re-do it. There was no excuse for this....

    <edit>BTW, here is a link to the Florida ballot. Look at the arrows. Very easy to follow if you take your time to vote</edit>

    http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/....ballot.ap.jpg

    [Edited by DaveMaxwell on 11-10-2000 at 08:10 AM]
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  2. #52
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    You cannot be a hypocrit and say that Buchanan recieved so many votes in Palm Beach this time around because people "mistakenly voted for him" when they meant Gore and then say that it doesn't matter that 4 years ago he got the same percentage of votes, and since the last election there has also been a 110% increase in people registering as a member of his reform party.

    Everyone who wanted to got to see the ballot before hand, everyone also got mailed a sample ballot. If you are confused you are supposed to ask questions, if you punch the wrong person you are supposed to ask for a new ballot. The ballot was designed and approved by a democrat, the ballot was shown to the parties in advance.

    And, those 19,000 ballots were thrown out because they voted for 2 people, 4 years ago 15,000 ballots were thrown out because they voted for 2 people. See a pattern here? If the people had such a problem they should have taken care of it 4 years ago.

    People need to be responsible for their actions. If I voted for 2 people and my vote got thrown out I'm not going to go to court and whine about it. I'm going to slap myself in the head and think "stupid me". Those people in Palm Beach should do the same.

    And if the positions were reversed, if Gore was ahead and Palm Beach was heavily republican, first I don't think such a fiasco would be going on, but if it was, I would be strongly on the side of Gore.

    I was watching CNN last night and someone made an important point. This vote was not so close because the nation is polarized. We are not evenly split down the middle because we strongly believe in either candidate. No, we are split down the middle because of our ambivilance. There is not alot of hatred either way. The country didn't really know which one they preferred, so half voted for one half, and half for the other.

    But I'll tell you what. As long as this cry of lawsuits goes on I like Gore less and less.

    Chris

  3. #53
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I agree.

    Why on earth would Bush look bad when he won the original count, and the re-count, and Gore is the one demanding a re-count again? Yes, the first was required, but he requested it nontheless.

    Not only that, but after conceding defeat he called back to retract that - I just don't see how Bush is going to be viewed the bad guy.

    I also, by the way, think he has a very good shot to win the popular vote. MSNBC and Fox News said that Bush was done by something like 100,000 votes nationwide with over 2 million absentees yet to be counted.

  4. #54
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    You guys are still missing the point: under Florida law, the ballot was not legal. Period. Given that, you cannot have valid results from an invalid ballot. That's the basis for the legal challenges at the moment. People did complain before the election that the ballots were confusing, and the elections folks did send out memos indicating same.

    As an extra note, the sample ballots that were posted were different than what was actually in the booth, which is mystifying. In addition, the language on the ballot may have caused the double punches, since they said vote for one group - and some people have said they punched out for both President and Vice President, which would tend to jibe with the doubles. I feel sorry for those people in PBC - they're being called eveything under the sun and people are willing to not give them their fair shot at having their voices count for anything.

    The reason Bush looks bad is that he knows, just as Buchanan does, that most of the votes attributed to Buchanan and/or double punched due to the way the ballot was set up were meant for Gore. For a guy who says he "trusts the people", he certainly doesn't seem very willing to trust their voices now. If he were man enough, and a man of his word, he would concede to the facts: Gore won PBC, and thus won FL, the pop vote, and the electoral vote. Since he is just another politician after all, we'll have to wait to see what the courts decide about this.
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  5. #55
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Annette

    You guys are still missing the point: under Florida law, the ballot was not legal. Period. Given that, you cannot have valid results from an invalid ballot. That's the basis for the legal challenges at the moment. People did complain before the election that the ballots were confusing, and the elections folks did send out memos indicating same.
    Yes, it's a shame it has come to this, but I do not see any viable thing to do. We can't just re-do everything, the chaos would be nuts, and the possibility for corruption would be unacceptable.


    Originally posted by Annette

    The reason Bush looks bad is that he knows, just as Buchanan does, that most of the votes attributed to Buchanan and/or double punched due to the way the ballot was set up were meant for Gore. For a guy who says he "trusts the people", he certainly doesn't seem very willing to trust their voices now. If he were man enough, and a man of his word, he would concede to the facts: Gore won PBC, and thus won FL, the pop vote, and the electoral vote. Since he is just another politician after all, we'll have to wait to see what the courts decide about this.
    That's far too presumptios of you to say - how can you say he won the FL vote? Absentees have yet to be counted, and no one really knows if those people are truthful. I've heard reports of Democratic organizations calling voters in that county and saying "Do you think you may have voted for the wrong person by accident? If so, get down there and protest" - not exact words, but you get the idea.

    Anyway, it is certainly out of line to declare Gore winning FL as "a fact", as you simply put it. Not only that, but you're also declaring him the winner of the electoral vote. Last I checked, Bush was up by less than a dozen votes in New Mexico, and within re-count territory in Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Oregon. If he takes 3 or 4 of those, he won't even NEED Florida.

    Bottom line: no one has won anything yet. Declaring Gore having won anything yet as a fact is 100% false, and no one really knows what has truly happened. I for one become wary of things when Jesse Jackson shows up to organize a protest.


    [Edited by TWTCommish on 11-11-2000 at 02:56 PM]

  6. #56
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    I was listening to an election law expert on the radio last night. He worked on Arizona elections in the past and serves on some committees in Congress. Of course, this is my awful paraphrase of what he said.

    He said that under Florida law, the ballot has to be made available prior to the election for everybody to see. If no one objects to the ballot prior to the election, then even though it does not meet certain criteria, it is the ballot that is to be used. The objections have to occur prior to the election, or they are not relevant.

    In other words, it might be an illegal ballot prior to the election, but if no one says anything, then it becomes a legal ballot by it's use.

    He was quoting all kinds of laws and Supreme Court rulings and sounded pretty knowledgable. He also didn't seem to be taking sides, which was nice.

    He said there is no legal basis for a re-vote, so that it is not even an issue.

    He also said that the laws and rulings state that a voter needs to approach the election with the solemnity that is due. They are supposed to use their literacy and understanding to make a proper vote. If they mark a ballot incorrectly, they have two more opportunities to get a new ballot and mark it correctly. They are also supposed to get help from the election clerk or judge. This is all according to federal and state law and Supreme Court rulings.

    The last thing he said is that the reason we got away from hand-counting ballots is that they had so many problems doing it that way. The machine counting helped to lesson the counting errors. Going back to hand-counting is not appropriate.

    OK, all of that was what he said. He could have been totally wrong, but like I said, he sounded pretty knowledgable.
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  7. #57
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    Edit:

    Long response to Chris snipped - with one note: it is certainly not presumptuous to note that Gore did indeed win the disputed counties (plural now), if the disputed ballots are included properly. Given the totals that would have come from that, and that many of the absentee ballots (around 3,000 now, from reports) are from American living in Israel, it's not an incredible leap of logic to draw the right conclusion from that. In the end, I don't think it will matter - but people will remember exactly what happened here when Bush is in office (ah, yes, the presumptuous action of preparing for a transition when nothing is yet settled) - and I sincerely doubt he will be effective (of course, I believed that from the start, given his record and his inexperience) or that he will be able to get a second term (like father, like son).


    James: People did complain about the ballots prior to the elections. In addition, many of the sample ballots were completely different than what was actually presented to voters in the booth - and elections people sent out memos indicating that the ballots were indeed confusing. There are other issues popping up as well - people not being allowed to have another ballot after screwing up the first one, being told they had five minutes to vote and get out, or their ballots would not count, etc. Those are secondary to the big issue, though. The only basis for a revote would be if there was something illegal about the vote in the first place. And, in fact, there was - the ballot itself does not conform to Florida law. The rest, as I've pointed out before, is simply a red herring. Here's a post from a lawyer, with the relevant law quoted. Is it likely that there will be a revote, that people from all over the nation have been asking for (even Bush supporters)? Who knows. One way or the other, people will not forget what happened down here. And Jeb Bush will probably not get himself back into the Governor's mansion here in two years.

    Paper ballot regulations:

    Under Florida statues title IX, chapter 101

    101.151:

    3a) states that "The ballot shall have headings under which shall appear the names of the offices and names of duly nominated candidates for the respective offices in the following order: the heading "Electors for President and Vice President" and thereunder the names of the candidates for President and Vice President of the United States..." suggesting very clearly that the names must appear under the heading. This has already been stretched by the Palm Beach ballot in its use of a two-column format. Also, the Palm Beach ballot has the heading to the left of the list of candidates, not above the list.

    Furthermore, 3a) states that you must mark your vote "in the blank space at the right of the name of the candidate for whom you desire to vote," never to the left as is sometimes the case on the Palm Beach ballot.

    Most importantly, however, 4) states that "The names of the candidates of the party which received the highest number of votes for Governor in the last election in which a Governor was elected shall be placed first under the heading for each office, together with an appropriate abbreviation of party name; the names of the candidates of the party which received the second highest vote for Governor shall be second under the heading for each office, together with an appropriate abbreviation of the party name."

    This unequiviocally states that Gore must appear second on the ballot, after Bush. Taken in conjunction with 3a), which states that the names must appear beneath the heaidng, we must conclude that Gore should appear 2nd down on the form. However, in Palm Beach County, he clearly appears third. Although some might refute this, it is quite clear that to vote for Gore, one must punch the third hole down on the ballot, not the second.


    Those people down in PBC have an absolute right to dispute the results of their votes.


    [Edited by Annette on 11-11-2000 at 05:34 PM]
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  8. #58
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    Oh, BTW - is anyone else getting sick of the Florida recount votes? I've been watching football today, and you know, Miami is in the hunt for the top BCS spot, so there's been some comments about "no recounts - haha", etc. Surfing through some of the other games picks up some other, similar types of recount/revote jokes. I tell ya - it'd be funnier if it were somebody else's state getting picked on.

    And some people have their priorities dead on. James, I saw the last part of the OU/Aggie game, and they said it was the largest crowd ever to watch a football game in TX. And I don't believe they needed a recount to note that (arrgghh - I'm doing it too!). hehe

    [Edited by Annette on 11-11-2000 at 05:25 PM]
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  9. #59
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Annette

    Edit:

    Long response to Chris snipped - with one note: it is certainly not presumptuous to note that Gore did indeed win the disputed counties (plural now), if the disputed ballots are included properly. Given the totals that would have come from that, and that many of the absentee ballots (around 3,000 now, from reports) are from American living in Israel, it's not an incredible leap of logic to draw the right conclusion from that.
    Edit:



    The counts are ridiculously closed. Assuming that ALL 3,000 of those Buchanon ballots go to Gore, and that he gets a reasonable amount of absentees, then yeah, it would be fair to say that. But what makes you think that most of those were meant for Gore? Buchanon got what, 1,500 or so in surrounding counties?

    Bottom line: it's very close, and you're stating a Gore victory as fact, which I think is far from the truth.

    Originally posted by Annette

    In the end, I don't think it will matter - but people will remember exactly what happened here when Bush is in office (ah, yes, the presumptuous action of preparing for a transition when nothing is yet settled)
    Drop that in there, eh? Wanna know what Gore has done? His campaign issued a statement accusing Bush of holding things up with his lawsuit - hmmmm...hypocrisy, anyone? Bottom line is that both camps should be preparing should they win - if they don't, it would be time lost if they are given the office.

    Originally posted by Annette

    - and I sincerely doubt he will be effective (of course, I believed that from the start, given his record and his inexperience) or that he will be able to get a second term (like father, like son).

    What's that, a jab at him or something? Little room for rhetoric when the simple facts are being flung around wildly. As for his record...Texas is last in many areas, but here's what "they" don't tell you: it was worse when he began.

    As for experience: he's a Governor, and is from a political family. If I recall correctly, Clinton was Governor, of a smaller state at that. Gore was a senator, wasn't he? I don't see experience as an issue. Gore has an edge currently living in the White House, but Bush is not under-qualified.

    Originally posted by Annette

    James: People did complain about the ballots prior to the elections.
    I havn't heard that from any of the news channels I've been watching. Where's this coming from? Please don't tell me it came from the Reverend Jackson or the Gore camp.

    Originally posted by Annette

    Who knows. One way or the other, people will not forget what happened down here. And Jeb Bush will probably not get himself back into the Governor's mansion here in two years.
    I'll tell you what they won't forget: they won't forget Gore demanding a manual recount of 4 highly democractic counties - is that fair? The voice of the people, as you like to say? No way. As for Jeb - that is off the subject and is just another jab at the Bush's in general.

    Originally posted by Annette

    3a) states that "The ballot shall have headings under which shall appear the names of the offices and names of duly nominated candidates for the respective offices in the following order: the heading "Electors for President and Vice President" and thereunder the names of the candidates for President and Vice President of the United States..." suggesting very clearly that the names must appear under the heading. This has already been stretched by the Palm Beach ballot in its use of a two-column format. Also, the Palm Beach ballot has the heading to the left of the list of candidates, not above the list.

    I believe this is irrelevant. The real issue is whether or not the ballot sent out to people was the one they voted with or not, and whether or not any officially registered a complaint. Those are the questions that need to be asked.

    Originally posted by Annette

    Those people down in PBC have an absolute right to dispute the results of their votes.
    Yes, seems like they likely do. But I think it's tremendously misleading to delcare those votes as Gore's when some are obviously Buchanon's.

    So, to summarize:

    - Bush cannot be said to be holding things up with legal preceedings...Gore was first in that department.
    - Gore cannot be named winner of anything with Florida skin-tight, absentees yet to be counted, conflicting media reports, and 3 or 4 other sites going through recounts!
    - The media is all screwed up - the AP has Bush up by 300 and change in the first recount, but the official release had Bush up by over 1,000.

    Let's keep to the facts - it's simply not fair to call Gore the winner, everyone knows that. The last time people made that mistake it cost Bush dearly, in my opinion.

  10. #60
    SitePoint Addict Macromedia's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Bush is up by 921 with 51 of the 67 in - and let's not forget the absentees. Bush clearly seems to have more, the lawsuit is all that can change that. I expect him to lead by several thousands after the absentees.

    How popular will Gore be if a lawsuit is what gets him in? Geez.

    And worst of all: now the Gore camp is complaning that he won the popular vote, calling his loss in electoral votes as a "technicality" - which is total bull! If you don't like the system, you can't go along with it and complain afterwards.
    Actually the Gore camp has made it clear that it is not here to challenge the electoral college. It has said that it understood the rules coming into this and that it certainly is not challenging them. They have just talked about Gore leading in the popular vote.

    Also, if lwasuits are so bad you might want to know that Bush filed his own lawsuit in Florida today and has made it clear that he will demand recounts if he needs to, just like Gore.
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  11. #61
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    To quote James Baker more or less:

    It appears Gore wants recount after recount after recount until he is happy with the result.

    Chris

  12. #62
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    Is anyone else sick and tired of this whole controversy? It's pretty sad how countries else where in the world are using more modern voting methods, while Americans, supposidly the most high-tech nation in the world, are still using punch cards? Why on earth are our voting booths so outdated? And why did Palm Beach county have that different ballet when the rest of the state didn't?

    Is this election going to split our country up? I hope not.

  13. #63
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    Sorry if this has been touched, I didn't read all 3 pages yet (though I have read similar threads such as this all over the net). If I read one more post on this, I'd probably pack up and move to Canada

    I've heard the t.v. and news reports of questionable tactics used by Democrats, handing out cigarettes to homeless people to vote Democratic, helping them in the voting booths, people saying "God wants you to vote Gore", etc. I'm sure things will be uncovered about Bush as well.

    What we have here is a race that is *very* close. Usually one candidate just clobbers another and recounts won't save them. When it is this close, there are bound to be many problems. Gore isn't going to be satisfied if Bush is announced the winner of a county, nor is Bush if Gore is announced the winner.

    In a race this close, I think the only shame was that everyone was calling who won before everything was properly tallied. Nader didn't win, no recounts needed, but this is just too close to call as of yet and that's all there is to it!

    It will be challenged. So what? If it is less than 3,000 votes, it makes a difference. Again, Nader didn't win.
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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    The Gore camp is not challenging the electoral college, but refering to the situation as a "technicality" is misleading and basically wrong. It's not a technicality - it's the way our system is setup. There was definitely a whining feel in the whole thing.

    As for "things bound to come out about Bush" - I really don't think so. I honestly do not believe Bush did anything as sneaky as hand out bribes (yes, under the law cigarettes are illegal bribes...even little campaign pencils are).

    As for the lawsuit - I do not support Bush's decision there (I think he's done a good job of being "above the fray" so far), however I think it's obviously in response to Gore's suit...

    ...as well as this ridiculously hand count where only pro-Gore counties are being run through. I don't think Bush would have done so if Gore had not first.

    Here's something that speaks volumes about the situation: Bush has apparently sent the Gore camp an offer. The offer is that there Bush would drop the suit and a manual recount of the entire state would be done, the absentees would be counted, and no challenges would be made on the result. Gore has not replied, and I doubt he will accept.

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    There will no doubt be charges back and forth about this party or that calling people talling them to go vote a certain way, or offering them something in return for their votes, etc. IMO, all of that kind of stuff is just ridiculous posturing that benefits no one. A judge has agreed to hear arguments on Monday in relation to the injunction sought by the Bush camp - it's more likely that it will be denied, based on the lawyers opinions I've seen thus far, since it's on such shaky legal ground. However, remember this: the Bush camp was complaining about the Gore camp trying somehow to hold up the results, and yet they are the first out of the block with the legal beagles. The Gore folks have said that they support whatever action the people are taking. So we'll see how all that shakes out. I doubt there will be a revote. I also doubt that Jeb will find himself with an easy road two years from now (ironically, minority voters here were seriously courted by Jeb during his run - those same minority voters who are now alleging harassment duing this election, and the ones seriously irritated by Jeb's "One Florida"/voucher plan that went down in flames).

    BTW, Chris - I think if you did some research on TX prior to GWB, you'd find that the only thing that's changed is the number of executions they're doing and the air quality in Houston, which has gotten markedly worse. Education, taxes, etc., haven't really changed at all. TX politics is a strange creature, much like other states in the south, and the TX governor, by all accounts, is one of the least powerful executives in the US. GWB is much, much better suited to being somebody's flunky in the business world. His inability to grasp the philosophical underpinnings of this current mess here in FL and the bull in the china shop mentality about the process is indicative of his inexperience in politics.

    I've read some of the overseas press and they're just having a field day with this (in one particular case, from a Japanese paper, the commentary said that the US is "still without a president", which is kind of amusing, since we do indeed have a president at the moment). The Russians have very kindly offered to assist us in this "crisis". Anyone want to take them up on that one?

    Our voting system needs a serious overhaul. As one of the aforementioned foreign commentaries said, here you have the world's leading technological and economic marvel still using 50 year old technology to complete elections. Surely there is a better way. Do you suppose that no one is very interested in putting something together because there really is no great return on it? After all, we are capitalist dogs....

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    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Well, Annette, if you want to say that despite stupid mistakes, the ballots in FLA were illegally laid out, then I think you have to agree that Gore's camp handing out illegal bribes to voters is a significant problem. Who knows what else is going on? I suspect a lot more, but will spare the SP readers of my paranoid conspiracies.

    Will of the people? Funny how Bush has one the count, and the re-count. Is it in limbo? Yes, but I don't see any indication that Gore is simply acting on the will of the people. How ironic that it also seems to benefit his chances - what a coincidence! :P

    Re: lawsuits. The Bush camp complained about it, but did nothing. When did they also go that way? When Gore did something TOTALLY ridiculous that had to be stopped: manual re-counts in 4 Pro-Gore counties. That's just unfair, and I think the lawsuit is a last-resort type of deal.

    Like I said: Gore's non-acceptance of Bush's offers speaks volumes. If he truly wants to go along with the will of the people, why would he not agree? Fight the other fights first if you need to, but none of this re-counting in certain areas - that's a disaster waiting to happen.

    Side-note: I am disturbed by the fact that 22% of the people surveyed in a CNN (or was it CNN Headline News? I forget) poll said the whole country should re-vote - am I the only one who wants to vomit over that?

    Bottom line now?: Re-count the state by hand, count the absentees, and let that be the end of it, even if Nader wins that way. While you have arguments against the ballot on Gore's side, on Bush's you have voting bribes and the fact that people ought to use their head when they're voting - I'm 16 and I would've been able to figure out the ballot!

    Sounds to me like you just do one big recount, take your time, and end it! Bush has offered this basically, Gore has not replied - anyone think he'll take it? Neither do I.

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    Oh, come on, Chris - you don't believe that tripe, do you? From with either camp, it's absurd.

    Anyhow, from what I've gathered thus far, the Gore camp has simply wanted a recount and a handcount, due to the sheer number of ballots discarded. No muss, no fuss. I haven't seen anywhere where they've said they'll take it to court - rather, that they would support whatever action the voters felt was necessary. Quite frankly, it disturbs me that Bush et al are not willing to simply wait for the results of the recounts - or not willing at all for there to be one. Interesting enough, the Bush camp has said, as part of their reasoning, that machine counts are fine and more accurate, and that's all that should be necessary. However, Bush himself, in the state of TX, signed into a law that says, in part:

    "(d) If different counting methods are chosen under Section 214.042(a) among multiple requests for a recount of electronic voting system results, only one method may be used in the recount. A manual recount shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount and an electronic recount using a corrected program shall be conducted in preference to an electronic recount."

    Sorry. It's too hypocritical to me - all of it, from the "I trust the people" stuff to the "No manual recounts" to the "I'm not a creature of Washington" pap. It simply shows me that Bush is just another politician, despite his claims to the contrary - and don't get me wrong, I am not surprised by this at all, since I tend to think cynically about politicians in general anyway. However, the depths of disregard that Bush displays for the process and the people makes it all the more astonishing to me that anyone would vote for him in the first place.
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  18. #68
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I find it astonishing that people would vote for a chronic liar who flip-flops on issues and makes promises about things he's had 8 years to correct.

    Regarding the manual count: I don't think you understand here - the count is set to take place as only a small percentage - IE: they're not recounting all the ballots, all they have planned now is to recount about 4 Pro-Gore counties, per his request. This is unfair - if it were a re-count of the entire state, Bush would not have said a thing.

  19. #69
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    Actually, I do understand what's going on a bit south of here - and it's not at all unfair. Under the law (and remember, we do live in a lawful country, with the specific laws of this state coming into play), if the vote falls within a certain percentage, and if there are severe numbers of irregularities (hoo boy, we got those), a sampling of precincts can be recounted without recounting the entire vote for an area. If the vote is still within a certain percentage, that recount can be expanded to include all precincts within a voting area. The campaigns have nothing to do with this - it's a matter of statute here in FL, and the burden falls to the elections supervisors to ensure that an accurate, honest count can be done, hopefully with a minimum of the precincts necessary to provide a good representation.

    The whole thing is a terrible mess, to say the least.
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  20. #70
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yes it is. As for the law - are you sure it says those 4 are to be re-counted in? If so, that's one amazingly dumb law. What's a re-count going to show us if it's a small targeted sample?

    Ugh...like I said: I think Gore should accept the offer. Can we agree on that, at least?

  21. #71
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    Most laws that deal with arcane stuff are...well, idiotic may be too strong a word. But they do go to show that we probably have too many politicians, too many lawyers, and too many lobbyists. The law regarding this issue is "such and such this percentage, based on sampling of such and such numbers of precincts that fall within 1% of the total vote as decided by the supervisory elections officials as duly elected representatives of the voters of said county...blah blah blah". Makes me happy that I never decided to study law - or, rather, since my interests tend to be very broad and I do have a passing interest in legalese (if only from a language standpoint), that I never decided to become a lawyer. I've decided that there is a room in every state capitol where someone draws a salary for sitting there thinking up yet another convoluted way to say something that could be said in a much clearer, much more succint way.

    To your second point: it's not up to Gore to accept or decline anything (or for Bush to offer anything) while the people down in south FL pursue whatever avenues they think are proper. No matter the result, it is the process being addressed at this time. A process that, were it handled a bit better by all parties, would be adequate for what it was designed to do. That process, however, has revealed holes as large as the one punched into the side of the Titanic by an iceberg that could easily have been avoided had better precautions been taken.
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  22. #72
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    The fact may very well be that there are always irregularities in elections. And sadly, so many years after this was supposed to be a bit of shameful history, there is probably always someplace where voter intimidation and harrassment is happening. The fact in this case is that irregularities or harrassment in any one voting precinct might well be the deciding factor in a presidential election. I can't see how anyone could think that should be allowed to happen. If the voters in a district feel they were disenfrachised, and that their disenfrachisment made such a difference, they should have their concerns aggressively addressed. Anything else would be..un-American, wouldn't it? When you add in the fact that the brother of one of the candidates is the governernor of the state with the most controversy..well, if I was a Bush..any Bush...I'd want to leave no stone unturned to remove the taint that this leaves on their reputations.
    That said, I don't envy the winner of this contest. The legitimacy of the next presidency is going to be a serious question to at least half the population, regardless of which one wins.

  23. #73
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    I don't think a re-vote would solve anything. Face it: our country is not ready for this. We have elderly volunteers at local schools and churches storing away vote ballets in closets, desk drawers, etc. They way we are doing this is not precise enough, if we re-vote, the results could be different. What a mess.

  24. #74
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    Good point - I feel a lot of people are going to be even less interested in politics after this. I do feel, however, that more people will vote next time - as they should. It's pretty sad that only 100 million Americans voted when, for example, the difference in New Mexico was, for awhile, 17 votes!

  25. #75
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    100 million people voted and everyone is saying this election has such a strong turnout...


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