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  1. #26
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    I am honestly getting really really sick of politics. Mostly because the majority of the kids at my school are completely infulenced by their parents, and have not decided for themselves if they are a democrat or republican. In fact..lol...one kid said he was a republican, thinking that jefferson was a republican, then when I and my American History Teacher corrected him, he all of a sudden didn't like Jefferson. I don't get it.

    My mom has a facility in Florida, and she talked to some of the people down there, and they said that you could not tell who you were voting for. I do not think that it is ignorant voters, but rather a real messed up ballot.

    I would never vote for Oog the caveman - his policies on Social Security are gonna drive me nuts. I would rather have Donald Duck as president.

    John

  2. #27
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    Originally posted by W. Luke
    19,200 ballots in Palm Beach County, Florida were mismarked and discarded by the Florida state Election commitee. Whether it is a case of misalignment or a case of ignorant voters is still to be decided.
    Ignorant voters it is. If you can't fill out a voting ballet correctly, you don't deserve to vote.

    Let's hope Bush holds on to the lead - I heard everything should be done by tonight...

  3. #28
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish
    Bush is up by 921 with 51 of the 67 in - and let's not forget the absentees. Bush clearly seems to have more, the lawsuit is all that can change that. I expect him to lead by several thousands after the absentees.

    How popular will Gore be if a lawsuit is what gets him in? Geez.

    And worst of all: now the Gore camp is complaning that he won the popular vote, calling his loss in electoral votes as a "technicality" - which is total bull! If you don't like the system, you can't go along with it and complain afterwards.
    Gore has not filed a lawsuit, Gore and his camp are looking at their legal rights under the law. This does not mean They will file a lawsuit.

    Two lawsuits have been filed by various voters in Palm Beach County Florida who feel that they were misled and defrauded by the election commitee of such county. These voters are worried that their Constitutional Rights have been voided by the discarding of 19,120 mismarked ballots. If this is the case then it is a grave misjustice to these 19,120 voters who will not have their voice heard.

    If your against that and you feel it is wrong, then you must not have much faith in your government, the Constitution of the United States or our legal system to resolve that specific issue which stands before them right now.
    Wayne Luke
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that the 19,000 some ballots were thrown out because they had problems with them, such as votes cast for more than one candidate. If this is so, then they were rightfully thrown out.

    As for the "butterfly" ballot in question, you all might be interested to know virtually the same layout was used in Illinios and no one has complained. It's also been used in other states, but Illinois is the only for-sure example I have.

    They havn't filed a lawsuit yet, but I expect one to come. I also hope this supposed demand for a "hand-recount" is done quickly, if at all. The recount now has Bush up by over 1,000 with 60 of the 67 counties reporting, and the likely to be Bush-favorable absentees yet to be counted.

    I seriously doubt it would be wrong twice in a row. And I'm still very upset that the Democrats are whining about the "will of the people" not being done because of the popular vote - what a crock, pardon my french.

  5. #30
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    The information on CNN.com says that Bush is only ahead by 341 votes. It hasn't been at 1000 since very early this morning.

    Maybe you better recheck your information source.

    AS for the ballots, such a high rate of mis-votes concentrated in one area can be seen as evidence that the ballot was confusing, especially to retirees with failing eyesight. Again as I said before, it will be up to a court of law to decide if that is the case. At any rate it should investigated.

    Even Pat Buchanan said that the high number of votes that he got in Palm County is inconsistant with the rest of the state and feels that it needs to be looked into.

    Looking at the ballot, I can see how people could have been confused and how it could have been layed out better in order to provide clarity. I agree this is something that should be looked into. Whether or not they should be allowed to re-vote, I haven't decided yet. The only reason that should happen is if malicious intent is found in the ballot creation process.
    Wayne Luke
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  6. #31
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Two republicans designed the Palm Beach Ballot, and it was approved by a Democrat, who is head of elections or something er other.

    The reason it was designed differently this year was because they needed room to make the text much bigger for elderly people with failing eyesite. Also there were arrows pointing from the candidate to the hole.

    There is no way, shape, or form that they can, in my opinion, allow those 19,000 people to revote because those 19,000 people know the result of the election ahead of time and it would not be fair.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but anyone can get a look at a ballot ahead of time can they not? If they voted for 2 people then yes, their vote deserved to get thrown out, and yes because of the large number the election people in that area should reevaluate their design. But they should not be allowed to revote.

    I really sincerely hope that who wins is decided by the vote count, if either party or anyone else tries to sue in hopes of changing the results of the election I will be severly disappointed in America.

    Whoever doesn't win this current vote count should cede the victory to the other person so the country can move on. I would hate to see going to court so you can be president become the american way.

    Chris

  7. #32
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Originally posted by JRS385
    In fact..lol...one kid said he was a republican, thinking that jefferson was a republican, then when I and my American History Teacher corrected him, he all of a sudden didn't like Jefferson. I don't get it.
    You're teacher was either dumbing it down or just doesn't know the right answer.

    Jefferson was a democratic-republican. A party which later split generally along North/South lines to become the two parties you know today.

    Chris

  8. #33
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by W. Luke
    The information on CNN.com says that Bush is only ahead by 341 votes. It hasn't been at 1000 since very early this morning.

    Maybe you better recheck your information source.
    My source was both Fox News and MSNBC - fact of the matter is I've been watching it precinct by precinct and it's been jumping from 1500 to 1000 to 500 to 100 and now down to 359 with 63 in. Some say 341, but either way it's about the same.

    My information source is the television and Internet, and MSNBC and Fox News both having the same numbers basically doesn't make them any less reliable than CNN - nothing needs to be "re-checked."


    Originally posted by W. Luke

    AS for the ballots, such a high rate of mis-votes concentrated in one area can be seen as evidence that the ballot was confusing, especially to retirees with failing eyesight. Again as I said before, it will be up to a court of law to decide if that is the case. At any rate it should investigated.

    Even Pat Buchanan said that the high number of votes that he got in Palm County is inconsistant with the rest of the state and feels that it needs to be looked into.
    Buchanan also said that if they made a mistake, then so be it - the votes were cast. And of course, Chris (aspen) pointed out that the ballots were changed to accomodate older people. In addition, similar ballots have been used elsewhere and I've yet to hear a complaint from them.

    I also think that it would take a major screwup to vote TWICE. Voting for the wrong person is somewhat understandable (despite the arrows), but voting for two people? How do you do that and not realize it?

  9. #34
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    I was just reading an Associated Press press release, and I just thought I'd share some interesting things...

    ``One of the options that they seem to be looking at is new elections. Our democratic process calls for a vote on Election Day, it does not call for us to continue voting until someone likes the outcome,'' Bush campaign chairman Don Evans said in Austin, Texas.
    I believe what Mr. Evans is saying is 100% true. Whats done is done. The elections are over, and it's time for us to know who our new President will be. Gore is mad that he lost, so he's trying every way to drag this out as long as he can.

    The winner of Florida stood to gain the state's 25 electoral votes - and the keys to the Oval Office, unless Bush's team makes good on a threat to contest Gore victories in Iowa and Wisconsin.
    Now look, Bush wants to drag this out even longer! Anyway, the full article can be read at the following URL: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/2000...ction_rdp.html

  10. #35
    SitePoint Addict superbird's Avatar
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    I thought it was supposed to be more accurate than putting a tick in a box? I don't think so!

  11. #36
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Just an update.

    With 65 counties reporting Bush is in the lead by 225 votes.

    Also in Palm Beach in 96 they threw out over 15000 votes because the people voted for 2 people, this is hardly a new problem there and that is more evidence that it should not be brought up now.

    And in 96 Pat Buchanan had the same high numbers in that county.

    Also the Gore Campaign has said they will take the battle to the courts if necessary, and the Bush campaign has said they may want recounts in some other states, but do not want to go to the courts.

    Chris

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Yeah, it says 65, but so far the official account as released by the people working on this in Florida is only 53, with Bush up by 1,500 - that's what it said at the press conference at least. Not sure which is more accurate.

    Anyway, I'm just waiting out the results of the re-counts. I remain confident...

    And yes, Buchanon actually had 3 times the number of votes (9,000) in that county back in 1996 as he did this year.


  13. #38
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    Originally posted by aspen
    Originally posted by JRS385
    In fact..lol...one kid said he was a republican, thinking that jefferson was a republican, then when I and my American History Teacher corrected him, he all of a sudden didn't like Jefferson. I don't get it.
    You're teacher was either dumbing it down or just doesn't know the right answer.

    Jefferson was a democratic-republican. A party which later split generally along North/South lines to become the two parties you know today.

    Chris
    Chris is right. Either way, a republican 200 years ago was totally different than a republican today.

    Things I have heard in the news make republicans look bad.

    I don't think that a lawsuit to get Gore in would make him look bad. I think it is already making the republican party look bad to tell you the truth. Either way, the election is extremely close right now, and according to my calculations, Bush is up by 0.00007732% of the votes in Florida.

    A total reelection in Florida sounds like the best thing to do. Either that or throwing out the entire state of Florida - which would let Gore win and let the rest of us get on with our lives

  14. #39
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    This issue of the same type of ballot being used in other states is a red herring. Florida statute mandates the manner in which the ballot is to be laid out, up to the order in which the parties are to be listed. The statute says that the candidates must be listed vertically on the left, with selections to be made on the right. I'm in Duval County, FL, and that's how our ballots were laid out: options on the left, punches on the right. It doesn't matter who designed/approved the ballot, or even that the ballot was posted and printed in newspapers (since you cannot guarantee that everyone in a particular voting district would have seen the ballot) - it violated state law and is therefore inherently flawed, from a legal standpoint. Those folks down in PBC have every right to be both upset and to take whatever action is due them under the law.
    Annette
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  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Look bad? I don't think Bush looks bad at all, he's just waiting around, while Gore is challenging things. I definitely think Gore is looking worse in that respect.

    As for re-election: terrible idea. Just won't work. You can't have people voting when they know things will be like this, or anything like that.

  16. #41
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Annette
    This issue of the same type of ballot being used in other states is a red herring. Florida statute mandates the manner in which the ballot is to be laid out, up to the order in which the parties are to be listed. The statute says that the candidates must be listed vertically on the left, with selections to be made on the right. I'm in Duval County, FL, and that's how our ballots were laid out: options on the left, punches on the right. It doesn't matter who designed/approved the ballot, or even that the ballot was posted and printed in newspapers (since you cannot guarantee that everyone in a particular voting district would have seen the ballot) - it violated state law and is therefore inherently flawed, from a legal standpoint. Those folks down in PBC have every right to be both upset and to take whatever action is due them under the law.
    I was watching CNN, and they discussed this. But they also brought up the point that if using some sort of electronic device (like in PB) that different rules apply. Regardless it'd be a judges interpretation of the law that would apply.

  17. #42
    Serial Publisher silver trophy aspen's Avatar
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    I also think the democratic party is looking very bad. The Gore Campaign has officially said they will fight the palm beach issue as long as it takes.

    But there is a larger question. Even if there was a problem in palm beach, can that warrant a revote?

    The anomalies experienced in Palm Beach are not new, the same thing happened to a comparable extent 4 years ago. Also the ballot was approved by people from both parties, and anyone had a chance to look at the ballot before hand, sample ballots were mailed to people etc. Based on all that I do not think there is much of a case for a revote.

    But even so? Can one county, in one state, vote for the president? If you allowed a revote that is what it would come down to. You can't argue that they are just a part of the entire nations vote because the entire nation is NOT voting again.

    So what if we just pitch out Palm Beach? Riots and lawsuits? What if we just pitch out Florida, huge riots and lawsuits. We can't accept either of those options.

    If a revote was to take place, there is absolutely no legal or constitutional precedence for it and even if so the only fair way to do it would be if it was country wide.

    For any revote to be fair you must also let the absentee's vote again. So you'd have to send them all ballots. If they did have a revote I really think that we would not have a president in time.

    I say, count the votes, and let whoever wins win. Tell Palm Beach that next election they need to have their act together since this is the second time they have had such results (although last time it didn't matter nearly as much as this time)

    Chris

  18. #43
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    Electronic device? We use paper ballots here in FL. Don't you know we're behind the times?

    Someone pointed out a quote for me from Ari Fleischer, who claims that PBC is a "Buchanan stronghold" which would be funnier if it weren't so outrageously untrue and just another mean-spirited swipe at what are, by all accounts, tainted results. Even Buchanan, as much as I dislike him, is a straight shooter about that issue.

    If there is to be a revote, it will likely only be in PBC, since that's where the most egregious errors lie, even with the irregularities reported in other areas of the state, where minority voters were harrassed or turned away. There have been some reports coming in that some absentee voters may have voted twice, having received two ballots. I disagree with Chris, as well. Right now, I think Bush looks worse in this situation, as his campaign is willing to ignore the rights of the people to a fair and honest vote in their haste to crown their guy the winner. I think if Bush is eventually declared the winner and nothing was done to address the concerns of the voters in that county, that Bush would look even worse for it. Americans tend to have a real sense of fair play, and if the position were reversed, you can bet that the Bush camp would be just as angry about it as the Gore camp is.

    Those who would arbitrarily dimiss all of those concerns risk setting their own, even worse, type of precedence by saying that it's perfectly ok to have an election that does not really reflect the voice of the people - all the people, not just with whom you agree.

    [Edited by Annette on 11-09-2000 at 09:49 PM]
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  19. #44
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    I don't think it comes off that way - have you ever known a candidate who did not remain confident of victory until it was 100% proven otherwise?

    Heck, Gore must be looking bad as well, because his camp is still claiming victory in Florida. Bush doesn't look like he's holding people back, simply because in the first count, AND the re-count, he came out on top.

    As for Buchanon - he got 3 times as many votes (9,000) in that same county in 1996.

  20. #45
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    Originally posted by TWTCommish


    As for Buchanon - he got 3 times as many votes (9,000) in that same county in 1996.
    So what? This is another red-herring type argument. Those people who have taken statistics understand the difference between related and independent events. Try to think logically about this instead of just diving into your favoritism of Bush, and think about how you would feel if people from around the country suggested that your vote didn't really matter. Think about how angry you would be were the positions reversed and Bush was on the other end of this fiasco (because truly, that exactly what this is). Think about the fact that while you decry this whole issue as against the spirit of democracy that you are willing to do even worse by nullifying peoples' rights to have their voices heard.

    Would I be making the same argument were it Bush on the other side? Yes, even though I voted for Gore. Why? Because a severe injustice has been done to the people in PBC - and through no fault of theirs. Because the ballot is flawed and illegal - and even the elections people knew it was, at a minimum, confusing. Because all of the political posturing means exactly zip - and while we may not live in a truly representative democracy, the participation of those who would care enough to make their mark on the election should not be disregarded.
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  21. #46
    SitePoint Wizard TWTCommish's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Annette

    So what? This is another red-herring type argument. Those people who have taken statistics understand the difference between related and independent events. Try to think logically about this instead of just diving into your favoritism of Bush, and think about how you would feel if people from around the country suggested that your vote didn't really matter.
    I'm not diving into anything, I'm mentioning something that I think is relevant, because when this is all over, what really matters is that the person who won the vote fair and square ends up in the White House. It's simply a fact that I think is relevant and worth mentioning.

    Originally posted by Annette

    Think about how angry you would be were the positions reversed and Bush was on the other end of this fiasco (because truly, that exactly what this is). Think about the fact that while you decry this whole issue as against the spirit of democracy that you are willing to do even worse by nullifying peoples' rights to have their voices heard.
    I didn't decry about Democracy (don't we live in a Republic anyway? ), however I cannot say how I would feel if things were reversed. I doubt I would go along as a rabid Bush supporter and support him no matter what thought.

  22. #47
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by TWTCommish

    I'm not diving into anything, I'm mentioning something that I think is relevant, because when this is all over, what really matters is that the person who won the vote fair and square ends up in the White House. It's simply a fact that I think is relevant and worth mentioning.


    How is the number of votes Buchanan got four years ago, in an election with other people besides the ones currently running from the two major parties relevant? It's like comparing apples and oranges. Take a look instead at the current vote tallies for Buchanan this time around, throughout the state of Florida. That will give you an idea of how relevant this PBC issue is, given the huge discrepancy between the totals from other counties and the totals from PBC. Yes, it really matters that whoever won "fair and square" should win. Some people, however, since this is currently in their favor, are willing to forego the "fair and square" part in their blind support of their candidate instead of what should be blind support for the process.


    I didn't decry about Democracy (don't we live in a Republic anyway? ), however I cannot say how I would feel if things were reversed. I doubt I would go along as a rabid Bush supporter and support him no matter what thought.


    I was referring to those people who think it it some kind of federal crime that people in PBC want their votes to count for something, since that's exactly the argument used to get people out to vote in the first place. People think that their votes don't matter, and that gives us the apathy we get these days, with 50% turnouts. We had an extraordinary turnout here in Florida. I would hate to have those people who were voting for the first time (or the first time in a long time, like my Mom) to think it was an exercise in futility all along.
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    Had I voted in what I thought was the correct way to vote, and my vote had been thrown out, I would be quite angry and would demand to know what type of recourse I may have that would allow my vote to ultimately be heard in this important election. I do not feel that anyone should be denied to have their vote counted, and if any improprieties or irregularities are found, I would support a revote for any county no matter which candidate was in question. This is a question of pure democracy and the fundamental right given to us by our Constitution. To deny an accurate vote would be invalidating our constitution.

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    For those of you into statistics and what seems to be just an absurdity down here in FL:

    "As a professional person of science and mathematics, I feel qualified to make a statistical observation about the vote recount in Florida. Currently, the additional votes received are: Bush: 664 recounted votes Gore: 2,223 recounted votes Since the original statewide vote totals were so close between Bush and Gore, statistically both candidates should be receiving close to the same amount of recounted votes. However, in this statistical sample, this is not the case; Gore is receiving four times more votes than Bush. There are two possible reasons for this occurrence: 1) Gore, originally received four times as many votes statewide (which has not been reported) or 2) Ballots indicating a vote for Gore, were four times more likely to be lost. Either way, this suggests fraud or other human bias."

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    As for Buchanon - he got 3 times as many votes (9,000) in that same county in 1996.
    You also have to keep in mind that voting patterns change from election to election, especially in a state such as Florida where the population is constantly fluctuating and the population makeup is also changing rapidly (young, elderly, etc.), so statistics from previous elections have little bearing when trying to make comparisons with this election.


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