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  1. #26
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    Grasped the basics of JSP myself now so this could be interesting - I suppose - but IMO it's just another technology/language to learn over and above JSP it's self and is it going to be worth it ? ...

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    (Stirring up some trouble )

    We're there!

    The Calendar. The template. The "Code Behind".

    Also, here's something Repeater-esque;

    The List. The template. The DataSet.

    And fast too

    Oh and not forgetting this...

  3. #28
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    :shrug:

    So? It's not stirring up trouble if it has no effect. The "PHP does that too" thing got old years ago

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  4. #29
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Stirring up trouble in the sense of basically showing off. What's different now is PHP really does that too. Whatever.

  5. #30
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Good for PHP, they're good features Personally I wish .NET evolved instead of having new 'versions' all the time.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  6. #31
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    Interesting, Hommage or Inspiration?

    J
    Probably a little of both, and hopefully slightly improved over .NET (if not, why even do it?). I've been waiting for JSF for a while; hopefully it's all Sun makes it out to be .

  7. #32
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    Perhaps too much hommage. Here an interesting point on the WACT wiki, re: Validation. It links to this blog raising the same point;

    This [validation defined in template] bothers me because it requires the page author to have knowledge about a field’s meaning in order to select the correct validation tag.

    I am not concerned that field validation is performed in the presentation layer. Validation should generally occur as close to the user as possible to provide the best possible feedback when an error is detected. I am concerned that validation is defined in the presentation layer.
    There's other issues with ASP.NET that make me wonder about seperation issues like;

    Code:
    <asp:Calendar
        onDayRender="MyHandlerMethod"
        runat="server" />
    Is it really the designers job to pick which call back function is used?

    I've yet to give JavaServerFaces a long look (I've heard the real source of inspiration is the Barracude framework. Compared to ASP.NET, the first obvious difference is how components (read control / widget as you like) are identified.

    With ASP.NET it's

    Code:
    <div>
    <asp:control runat="server" />
    </div>
    With JSF it's something like;

    Code:
    <div>
    <faces:usefaces>
    <faces:control />
    </faces:usefaces>
    </div>
    That's about as in depth as I've got so far, given JSF is still not official.

  8. #33
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryF
    There's other issues with ASP.NET that make me wonder about seperation issues like;

    Code:
    <asp:Calendar
        onDayRender="MyHandlerMethod"
        runat="server" />
    Is it really the designers job to pick which call back function is used?
    No, that's why those properties are normally defined in the codebehind, not the template. Like so:

    Code:
    <asp:Calendar
        id="myCalendar" 
        onDayRender="MyHandlerMethod"
        runat="server" />
    Codebehind:
    Code:
    myCalendar.onDayrender += new EventHandler(MyHandlerMethod);
    I actually seldom define much properties in the tag. I prefer to do the manipulation of it from the codebehind instead.
    Mattias Johansson
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  9. #34
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, you can do it in either. Firing events from the .aspx page really is quite sloppy.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  10. #35
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    Now that sounds like the old arguments leveled at PHP; "the right way and the wrong way".

    There's a very interesting paper here: http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/papers/mvc.templates.pdf on just this subject, arguing that template engines should be strict and enforce seperation;

    Unfortunately, under deadline pressure, programmers will use this backdoor routinely as an expedient if it is available to them, thus, entangling logic and display.
    Quote Originally Posted by M. Johansson
    I actually seldom define much properties in the tag.

  11. #36
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    There's a very interesting paper here: http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/papers/mvc.templates.pdf on just this subject, arguing that template engines should be strict and enforce seperation;
    I agree. I really like .NET or at least portions of it. The code-behind was interesting until I settled on the notion that a development tool in today's age should be sufficiently advanced enough to help facilitate code separation. For instance the relationship between files and classes,templates should cause the IDE of a development tool to auto update if something happens in one class; it should help show that relationship change on another view without user assistance. This type of IDE will be needed to truly separate information into pools MVC as there is simply too much information to manage while programming on a computer with all the various languages, design patterns, application usage and applications going from single client to thin client-server; new lines of development are being drawn and the information for a single person is quickly becoming overwhelming from an organizational standpoint - which is why there are fewer lone developers AFAIK than in the past, it takes a team to produce a single effort now. It might also be the reason Micros$oft and others are focusing on TEAM organizing software (people soft) - something open source could use as well.

    Interesting point about JSF, I hadn;t heard of it until now. Here's an excerpt from Sun's page.

    For example, web page developers with no programming expertise can use JavaServer Faces UI component tags to link to application code from within a web page without writing any scripts.
    Interesting. http://java.sun.com/j2ee/javaserverfaces/

    Web page of JSF as it is now: http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=127

    Ps: Thanks for the link. though it says Submited to WWW 2004. ?? lol
    Cheers

  12. #37
    SitePoint Wizard gold trophysilver trophy
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    The code-behind was interesting until I settled on the notion that a development tool in today's age should be sufficiently advanced enough to help facilitate code separation. For instance the relationship between files and classes,templates should cause the IDE of a development tool to auto update if something happens in one class; it should help show that relationship change on another view without user assistance.
    Doesn't that suggest that the layers are poorly seperated? There's no perfect solution fo course. Also have to confess I'm no big fan of IDE's - for me there's something fundamentally wrong with a technology if it takes an IDE to work with it.

    That said I'm becoming increasingly impressed by Eclipse, at least when Java's involved. Couple of full time Java coders I know tell me they guess practically every serious Java shop is now using it.

    It might also be the reason Micros$oft and others are focusing on TEAM organizing software (people soft) - something open source could use as well.
    Think open source already is (and may in fact be the pioneers). Most OS projects are possible thanks to CVS. Also Eclipse (again) has some great collaboration features.

    For example, web page developers with no programming expertise can use JavaServer Faces UI component tags to link to application code from within a web page without writing any scripts.
    Can see that's great for business if you're a vendor... can also see it's great for disaster if you're a customer. You can almost here it "So you called that component that does a full table scan. Are you nuts?!?" ... "What's a full table scan?". Perhaps done right (with very safe comoponents, esp. for security) it can work. Then we can all go home

  13. #38
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    JSF is essentially the same architecture as ASP.NET. UI component tags are user controls. Backend controls are the same as controls. Object referencing into the logic layer is no different than either code-behind or libraries or web services or or or...

    I don't see any platform doing the dream "full separation completely logically" at this point.

    It'd be a fantastic idea, I just don't see it.

    Besides Harry, you know as well as I do that you can do ASP.NET without an IDE. You can even do .NET period without an IDE. No idea why you'd want to, but there is a community of about 5000 ASP.NET'ers who do it.

    As far as OSS already doing team dynamics, sure. CVS was far from the first code repository and it won't be the last. That isn't the only definition of teamwork though (code in the same place).

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  14. #39
    Non-Member coo_t2's Avatar
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    Can we use web matrix for doing PHP now?

    --ed

  15. #40
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Yeah... And you could use VS.NET if you wanted to...

    Really VS.NET is the most advanced text editor ever, if you don't want to use the IDE portions. Text highlighting, autocomplete, full MSDN at your fingertips. I know it's not useful to PHP folk, but if you are a .NET guy who wants to do handcoding, I'd say it's still worth the investment.

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  16. #41
    ********* Victim lastcraft's Avatar
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    Hi...

    Two pence worth...

    A bit off topic, but Eclipse was mentioned as the top Java tool. It is really number two after IntelliJ IDEA. The trouble is that IDEA costs 700 quid and up . What distinguishes them from lesser editors is the refactoring tools. For example, being able to rename a method and have it change in every location is very liberating. Search and replace is not the same.

    I was chatting to an IDE veteran (Steve Freeman of Mock Objects fame) and he says that every decade he spends in the business he sees the tools get worse. Dolphin SmallTalk and others could run code interactively and do automatic refactoring. It takes Eclipse/Idea and BeanShell to achieve the same in Java. And as for Visual Studio...

    Like Harry I am no fan of IDEs. They take over the desktop and prevent me using best of breed tools.

    Anyway, ignore this post and get back to your discussion...

    yours, Marcus
    Marcus Baker
    Testing: SimpleTest, Cgreen, Fakemail
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  17. #42
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    if you are looking for something similar to ASP.NET for PHP you should take a look at http://webpanels.sourceforge.net/

    I feel this is a great start on a wonderful idea

  18. #43
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    Eclipse is actually a very good platform for PHP development -- though it primarily has Java and C++ tools. The fact that is runs on WIndows and Linux is a plus for teams.

    The two plugns you need for PHP web development are:

    PHP Eclipse

    SFTP File Sync

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by coo_t2
    Can we use web matrix for doing PHP now?

    --ed
    Yep (at least, you can parse stuff generated by webmatrix with webpanels).

  20. #45
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    It looks like Harry put up a really nice piece of work here, but I wonder where's the rest? Is it in WACT now, or is WACT different then ASP.Net alltogether?

    I am wondering if there is any other work on making asp.net type of controls on php?


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