SitePoint Sponsor

User Tag List

Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Serious Issue : Respectful Discussion

    There is a serious issue which has come to my attention and I would like to address. The Forums, I have found, are no longer a friendly place.

    I can't state my opinion without being flamed.
    I can't reply with my views without being insulted.
    I can't count on mentors or advisors or forum founders.
    I can't trust the community to respectfully disagree.

    In current and past threads, time and time again, I have opted to share my time to interact with others only to be sliced into hemispheres. Perhaps I'm just a patriot from the "Land of the Free" and think speech is my God-given right. But when I come here, I'm afraid to talk.

    We shouldn't point fingers
    or name names
    or insult because they're different.

    Is it really that hard?

    As I post this, I seriously doubt the thread will be a respectful, open-ended discussion because it's bound to follow the footsteps of its predecessors. It's a serious issue and I think the community ought to take note of it.

    Sincerely,
    Jason

  2. #2
    "Of" != "Have" bronze trophy Jeff Lange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    2,063
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, respectfully, I fail to see what SP can do about the attitudes of it's members, it's not like they own them, and if they try to control them too much, they will just leave.

    This may in the end result in friendlier people, however, I am unsure on this.

    I'm mostly in the web-design and PHP forums, and I cannot say I have experienced this first hand, as I try to be open-minded, and feel others do as well.

    Just speak your mind, and let them flame... you're too far away to feel the heat anyways.
    Who walks the stairs without a care
    It shoots so high in the sky.
    Bounce up and down just like a clown.
    Everyone knows its Slinky.

  3. #3
    One website at a time mmj's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    6,282
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Hello geiger,

    Thanks for writing about this.

    If you have a problem with any specific forum user, you should contact an advisor, team leader, myself or Nicky about it privately.

    If you are to referring to a specific member, but you are instead referring to a series of occurences, could you please provide links to some example threads?

    Thanks,

    Tom
    [mmj] My magic jigsaw
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The Bit Depth Blog · Twitter · Contact me
    Neon Javascript Framework · Jokes · Android stuff

  4. #4
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd advise you to simply stay out of PRWE. There is a reason it was separated from the main forums, and that was because of it's generally unfriendly attitude didn't go well with the rest of the forums.

    If you are talking about occurences outside of PRWE, please do post links.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  5. #5
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Oh, and I will respectfully disagree with you. I think Sitepoint is very tolerant against controversial views compared to other forums.

    You have to understand that controversial views always will get opposition. Otherwise, they would not be controversial. The United States is currently an agressor of war on an international level without UN approval. One may have different views about the justification of that (which IS NOT to be discussed in this thread, I might add) but it will stir up very strong emotions in people - that is just something we have to understand, and try to argue your views in the best manner possible, to try to give people understanding of your views.

    If someone is attacking your views in a manner that is out of line, I suggest you simply report it, and an advisor will deal with it.

    And you're talking to a guy who was on the .NET side in the .NET vs. PHP debate. My article was rated 5.9 with a lot of 1-ratings with comments like "PHP IS BETTA" (actual quote). But I remain calm, since I know ASP.NET rocks anyway, and that I have the arguments to back it up.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  6. #6
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For the most part, confrontation happens in the Trading Post. Right now a thread abou some general Trading Post matters was hijacked and sent to flame camp for a little while. My point here is that no one needs to name names, but I think it's obvious that I was quite shocked to find one of the most respected members of the community be so utterly rude and disrespectful (hm... to me?).

    And, you can also note that there were plenty of advisors in this particular thread but not one bothered to say anything.

  7. #7
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by geiger
    For the most part, confrontation happens in the Trading Post. Right now a thread abou some general Trading Post matters was hijacked and sent to flame camp for a little while. My point here is that no one needs to name names, but I think it's obvious that I was quite shocked to find one of the most respected members of the community be so utterly rude and disrespectful (hm... to me?).

    I assume you are referring to this thread:
    http://www.sitepointforums.com/showt...hreadid=112169

    And I also assume that you are reffering to Naramation and Wayne Lukes comments as attacks against you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Naramation
    Well, you knew it was coming, but that was unprofessional for you to say. It's no skin off your back if a designer submits more than one entryu at a time.
    Quote Originally Posted by 'W. Luke
    Personally, I think Geiger is acting very unprofressional in this thread and very whiny.
    I can understand how why think that these people are not very accepting of your views, but in that very same thread, you say some things that are actually very instulting, and a lot of people could very well feel hurt.

    I'm tired of "designers" here who post a design.
    People here really need to get a clue about how to act professional
    Honestly, many of you are acting extremely irrationably.
    You heavily critizise others, and yet you somehow expect people not to do the same to you? Do unto others as you would want them to do to you.
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  8. #8
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Mechanicsburg, PA
    Posts
    7,290
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    I read the thread you were discussing, and I have to say (respectfully, of course) that I thought you took that personally before anyone else. You started off with a public opinion on the professionalism of the other designers who take part in the competitions there. You may not have used the work unprofessional(you did use designers in quotes, which is close enough, IMNSHO), but essentially that's what you were claiming because they take a different approach to the design process than you do.

    You then took offense when someone gave a different opinion than yours, and just because that person happens to be a higher level entity at SP, you felt they should refrain from sharing their opinions? I can't say I agree with that. It did then start heading towards a flame war, with your full involvement, including insulting other members ages, skills mindsets by the broad generalization you made on the other competitors(post #7 of that thread if you'd like to know which post I'm referring to). You made no mention of names, but that only made the attack more personal to everyone that has participated in those types of contests (which I happen to be one).

    It took about halfway through that post before people calmed down, but I personally thought that some of the thoughts being thrown around were not that entirely different than what started the so-call flame war, just worded a little differently.

    I think the "problem" with forums is that the text of the posts often do not convey the true "intent" of the meaning and people often take the posts as literal conveyance of the meaning and often times it isn't necessarily the case.
    Dave Maxwell - Manage Your Site Team Leader
    My favorite YouTube Video! | Star Wars, Dr Suess Style
    Learn how to be ready for The Forums' Move to Discourse

  9. #9
    SitePoint Wizard samsm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Atlanta, GA, USA
    Posts
    5,011
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not familiar with the specific happenings in any of these marketplace threads and I really don't care to make myself familiar with them. :-)

    Anyway, Geiger, respect is something everyone should keep in the top of their head, and I'm glad you brought it up because everyone (me at least!) needs a reminder every now and then.

    I think some people misunderstand the concept of dealing with people respectfully.

    One might interpret that as: "If someone treats me with respect, I will treat them with respect."

    Wrong. :-)

    The "respect" in this equation is something you generate for yourself. When you treat people respectfully, you are not being nice to them because they are nice to you, you are earning their respect by treating them fairly, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and attempting to be helpful.

    Respect does not exist in a vacuum, other's must feel that way about you. On occasion, people can be unreasonable, say things that are misleading, or mean. These instances are perfect opportunities to gain respect. The quickest way to gain respect is to be rational when someone else is not. Refuse to let a discussion get personal. Take criticism (even if it is completely off the wall) and find value in it.

    Can't say that I am perfect by any means, but I attempt to follow this in my own life as well as my posting habits. When I succeed, I am always treated with respect, even by people who are predisposed to violently disagree with me. When I fail, I look back at the exchange a week later and think to myself, "Why was I such an jerk?", even if the other person was 10x worse.

    Anyway, just some ramblings for the discussion. :-)
    Using your unpaid time to add free content to SitePoint Pty Ltd's portfolio?

  10. #10
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I completely understand that many of the things I have said can be taken in an offensive way, but if you think that then you are truly taking things out of context. Schools here (in my area, specifically) BAN discussion of abortion because it's too controversial. They rarely talk about other such issues (stem cells, etc.) because they know people will get offended.

    I purposely didn't point out anyone in particular because I wasn't repremanding anyone. I was stating my opinion on an occurance - which, by the way, will never revolutionalize without discussion.

    Obviously things I say can be taken in the wrong way, but I _definitely_ made it clear from the get go that I meant no offense to anyone and was simply trying to resolve a potential problem.

    No, I didn't like the fact that "authority" was being extremely disrespectful towards me because I was not at all attacking them. I JUST wanted something to be noticed and thought they as much as I deserved to be heard.

    Hopefully that has made a few things clear. Yes, some things could be taken in an offensive way. But I honestly did not intend (and made note of it) to single ANYONE out and specifically stated that doing so is exactly the type of attitude which got me to square one. The fact that I mentioned that should be reason enough for people to listen and share, but not start a flame ware which I deliberately tried to prevent.

    Alrighty?

  11. #11
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    8,277
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I believe that the discussion here is complete.

    If you have any problems at any time you know you can always talk to me.

    I am the authority here and have been nothing but respectful towards you in all your time at SitePoint.

  12. #12
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Um... yes, you have? Thank you?

    I honesly don't know how to respond and am baffled at the notion that you want to curtail a perfectly productive thread. What is wrong with us discussing this issue? You make it sound like we've even mentioned your name (when we did nothing of the sort and most likely have not thought of you at all - a good thing.)

  13. #13
    gingham dress, army boots... silver trophy redux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Salford / Manchester / UK
    Posts
    4,838
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    nicky is offering you a direct line of help. don't read it as a confrontational curtailing, but as an opportunity.
    re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
    [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
    WaSP Accessibility Task Force Member
    splintered.co.uk | photographia.co.uk | redux.deviantart.com

  14. #14
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Alright. I'll contact Nicky and hopefully get some things noticed. Thanks, everyone.

  15. #15
    Freelance Web Designer KeithMcL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    1,125
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I too think that this is a valid thread and should not be closed. Let others post their opinions. I can't say that i've ever been flamed by anyone on this community, but when reading this thread all I can see (except for 1 or 2) is SPF staff defending the forum members. Notice how many non-spf staff (excluding myself of course) have posted a reply here?

    I know in some ways that it's your job, but you don't always have to defend the members!

    Reading some of the quotes posted above I agree that some of Geiger's posts were a bit much, but in defence of Geiger they weren't targeted at anyone in particular. It's just that those that read it automatically think it's referring to themselves so they go on the defensive, which in turn makes things worse. They should take a step back, read it again and then post a less defensive response.

    That's my view on this topic. I'm not getting at the SPF staff here either btw. I was just pointing out who has responded in this thread.

  16. #16
    ☆★☆★ silver trophy vgarcia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    in transition
    Posts
    21,235
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by KeithMcL
    I too think that this is a valid thread and should not be closed. Let others post their opinions. I can't say that i've ever been flamed by anyone on this community, but when reading this thread all I can see (except for 1 or 2) is SPF staff defending the forum members. Notice how many non-spf staff (excluding myself of course) have posted a reply here?
    1. The staff reads the Suggestions and Feedback forum more than regular members, yes. There should be nothing new or shocking about that. Most of the threads in this forum are a member asking about something, then staff responding; it's a regular pattern in here anyway.
    2. I too think that the thread is valid, and this very forum is a place for others to vent about things that can be improved around SPF. Nicky was not trying to curtail discussion, but trying to help Geiger personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithMCL
    I know in some ways that it's your job, but you don't always have to defend the members!
    Defending members isn't really our job. The staff is here to keep the peace, promote SPF, and help out when/where we can. Most of us aren't even paid for this position (Team SP excluded).

    Anyway, I'm not trying to attack or anything; I just wanted to clarify a few possible misconceptions that others may have about the forum moderators.

  17. #17
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have spoken with Nicky through SP and we will hopefully see some results soon, though I'll let her speak about that if she chooses.

    Thanks to everyone who helped a productive conversation.

  18. #18
    Wanna-be Apple nut silver trophy M. Johansson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Halmstad, Sweden
    Posts
    7,400
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've given this a great deal of thought now. I think we can all learn something from this thread, regardless of whether it continues or not. We need to remember that things you say on the internet will indeed be read by people, and people will feel hurt. We must also remember that if you don't express yourself clearly, your eloquent post might very well be read as an attack.

    Geiger, even though he did not target specific individuals, still hurt people by saying the things I quoted above. People simply felt hit and hurt, since he was putting down a specific behavior. Even though I'm sure his intentions were good, and it was not his intention to insult, he obviously did. It didn't really matter that he made it clear that it wasn't meant as insults - we must all remember that a person still gets hurt if I say "You are pretty ugly and really need to get a haircut. I do not mean that as an insult."

    I recommend every participant in this thread to read "How to Win Friends and influence people". While this book has a lame title, it's a golden nugget of social common sense that we so often forget, and it has been recommended over and over on these forums. One of the best things it teaches is that negative critque never really works. It just puts people on defensive (which is EXACTLY what was demonstrated in this thread, and that Trading Post thread).

    Bottom line: We must simply learn not to put down on peoples behavior, and instead guide and educate people on how to do it properly instead. Write an artice! Write a guide! Help newbies that ask questions! Post links in your sig!
    Mattias Johansson
    Short, Swedish, Web Developer

    Buttons and Dog Tags with your custom design:
    FatStatement.com

  19. #19
    Don't get too close, I bite! Nicky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    8,277
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Jason and I have spoken and he has some good ideas. I am currently working on some documentation which will incorporate useful suggestions by members.

    If you do feel you can contribute any ideas on how to improve our already fantastic community then please get in touch with me, I am always willing to listen.

  20. #20
    SitePoint Wizard geiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Posts
    2,459
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Yepp, thanks again, Nicky.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •