Why php?

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 16:11

Originally Posted by HarryF

.NET is only making progress in Visual Basic camps (there's no mad rush from C++, C or Java happening).

And the "mad rush" statement was in reaction to the above as well

J

**seanf** · May 17, 2003, 16:36

Originally Posted by Jeremy W.

... with the exception of Harry who is rather predictable after many of these conversations

Just Harry, Jeremy?

Sean

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 16:56

Fair enough

I'm using LAMP in our network, on my decision, though, and that will continue to expand

I figure we'll have between 6-10 xNix servers in the organization, and probably as many desktops (5%) within a year

J

**firepages** · May 17, 2003, 18:02

...assuming we are still in the land of the internet and web-related applications ... since 75% of webservers are not running IIS and therefore not running ASP (excluding chillisoft & its ilk) then taking into account that 65% ish of all servers are running apache + at least 50% of those servers are running mod PHP... then in the web-arena PHP has it pretty much covered as far as I can tell.... vs ASP.OLD/.NET at least.

Have to say I don't think PHP will encroach into certain areas and therefore cant really be expected to replace JAVA (or whatever) etc outside of the web-arena , of course I still usefull standalone, but thats just me innit.

I'm sorry, which part of the story infers that the team were without skills or not up to the task?

The team, yesterday, hit the 100 hour mark and it still isn't working properly

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 18:37

Yes, because projects running over time and people making mistakes is limited to "drug smoking MS addicts"

Ah, but of course, though, because PHP makes for better developers, right?

**samsm** · May 17, 2003, 20:39

I looked up a resource on Rad for another thread: http://csweb.cs.bgsu.edu/maner/domains/RAD.htm

Anyway, here's the part I found interesting:

PRINCIPLES BEHIND THE DEFINITION

A. In certain situations, a usable 80% solution can be produced in 20% of the time that would have been required to produce a total solution.

B. In certain situations, the business requirements for a system can be fully satisfied even if some of its operational requirements are not satisfied.

C. In certain situations, the acceptability of a system can be assessed against the agreed minimum useful set of requirements rather than all requirements.

That kind of gives you an idea of the compromises and gains involved with RAD.

**CompiledMonkey** · May 17, 2003, 20:55

Wow, for people to come out and say php will overtake J2EE. Do you even have the smallest idea of what J2EE is about? Personally, I love .NET. I can't wait to get more projects where that is the development platform of choice. I also think people will view IIS in a different manor once they take the time to open their eyes and use IIS6 on Windows Server 2003. I'm certainly an open person to using the correct tool for the job. Hell, I'm a Java and .NET junkie!

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 21:17

Naw, I seriously doubt anything with the name "IIS" will ever be taken seriously, nevermind anything with the name "Windows". Why? "Because it's still MS".

**Technosailor** · May 17, 2003, 21:21

Did I ever mention I don't like whiners and crybabies...

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 21:21

Most of the folk here haven't even tried IIS5 yet and when that's mentioned, that's the response I get [img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]

edit: heck, I'd suggest a namechange for IIS, except that'd just be "another MS marketing tactic". It's a no-win situation. For a company like MS, the only thing they could do right for some folk would be to fold.

**Technosailor** · May 17, 2003, 21:23

no-win. I think that's what we're wanting.

**Technosailor** · May 17, 2003, 21:24

No, the worse thing that could happen to MS isa for Macromedia to buy them out....lol

**CompiledMonkey** · May 17, 2003, 21:25

No kidding man. What pisses me off is that SAs at my old job (Sun/Java shop) just talk so much **** about it when I bring it up. Of course not a single one of them have even seen WS2003 or IIS6, much less actually used it. Then when I start giving out actual experience with the products, explaining how simple and fast it is to setup and deploy applications while still being secure, all I get is blank stares.

And about everybody talking about how PHP is free, give it up. Sure, it benefits solo people making sites for small companies. But when you work in an enterprise environment, the cost of OS/IDE/App Server/SQL Engine is nothing compared to the actual cost of a developent team's hours. When you can put together an application that is on a true enterprise worthy level and is of high quality, those costs simply don't matter.

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 21:26

Sun could buy them out, that'd be pretty bad, there'd be no new developments at all then

**CompiledMonkey** · May 17, 2003, 21:29

Originally Posted by Jeremy W.

Sun could buy them out, that'd be pretty bad, there'd be no new developments at all then [img]images/smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I love Java, it's a great platform. But the one thing I hate about it is that Sun controls it. If I could pick another company/group, it would be IBM. I have more faith in them to make more advancements within Java. Sun hasn't been doing enough IMO to take Java to even another level. The first thing that needs to be done is the removal of Swing.

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 21:30

@ Chris. For instance, we're doing a hosting company startup thing at work. Total cost of all hardware and software is 25K. Total cost of work is 25K. Total cost of MS software? 2K. So, less than 2% of the total cost is MS software, and the ongoing cost will be even lower. After the first year it'll be into hundreds of percentage points.

Anyways, enough badmouthing the guys who are in bed, I'm sure I'll wake up to more than enough responses to a thread I've tried to quit three times

**CompiledMonkey** · May 17, 2003, 21:37

Yeah, I can already feel it coming on for tomo.

I can understand where most of these guys are coming from because I thought the same way before I got into the real world. When I was doing small projects where I was the only developer, it was web based, and had a tiny budget, I said the same stuff and had the same views. Now that I've grown as a developer and work in multi million dollar contracts, I see the light in a different manner.

**Chris82** · May 17, 2003, 22:04

One thing I find really annoying about PHP is the inconsistent function naming and the way arguments are passed to functions.

For example array_filter and array_map. Both functions do similiar things but the order of arguments is completely different:

// from php.net
// array_map: function, array
array_map("map_Spanish", $a);
// array_filter: array, function
array_filter($array1, "ungerade");

This is confusing and I easily forget this.

The naming is also not really consistent. The mysql functions for example are made up like mysql_num_rows. The GD functions use imageCreateFromGif. (ie. no underscores).
I think it would be much easier to go with one way of naming the functions.

Now, if I look at the J2SE docs, there is indeed a consistent way of naming the methods. And because the Java code standards are widely accepted, one knows just from taking a look at the method's name a bit about it.
For example: isValid(int number);

Another thing that is really missing for PHP is a good IDE. PHPEdit isn't bad but I think that it currently does not match the functionality of Java IDEs such as Eclipse which I use for Java. Autocompletion is a real typing saver

**Dr Livingston** · May 18, 2003, 02:10

"In Europe," notes Suraski, "PHP is really dominant in both the open source and commercial sectors. In the United States, though, PHP has moved slowly to large organizations. The fact that we now we have a big customer using it is quite a powerful statement."
Companies such as CMG, Ananova, Motorola, Earthlink (applications for internal use), Worldcom (now defunct), UPS, HP, Lycos, IBM, and ww.auctionwatch.com are using PHP for non-trivial web applications -- some demanding very high traffic.

Now, didn't I say that PHP5 would be ready for this ?

Here is the full article btw:

http://www.theopenenterprise.com/sha...E20021204S0001

PHP is not a language just to be sniffed at;

**firepages** · May 18, 2003, 02:33

Wow, for people to come out and say php will overtake J2EE

who said that ? PHP is a language , J2EE a framework as is .NET

what people are muttering is that they see no reason why PHP can not even now lend itself to Enterprise development , people already use it as such and one can only assume that PHP5 will ensure that sector of PHP grows

Of course not a single one of them have even seen WS2003 or IIS6, much less actually used it

& considering how long 2003 has been out then thats hardly a surprise is it. I have .NET Enterprise Server RC2 (which is I assume a beta of 2003?) ...gott'a say that configuring IIS confuses me more than does configuring apache/*nix but I suppose its a question of what you are used to.

Now that I've grown as a developer and work in multi million dollar contracts, I see the light in a different manner

sorry , I did not realise I was in the presence of such greatness ..(Jeremy & Harry aside

) , so I best shut-up.

I agree with JeremyW in that IIS does have a stigma attached that is hard to shake and no matter how good it is or is'nt it will always be InsecureIS in the minds of many, yes a name change will attract derision but I think in the long run thats it would be worth it ?

**Phil.Roberts** · May 18, 2003, 02:50

I don't think that PHP will ever "take over" from Java as they really are two completly different entities. But with the advances coming up in PHP5 I think PHP will start to see a LOT more "proper" programmers picking up on PHP, as it will at last start to incorporate the advanced features that so many love about C++/C# and Java, but without losing the simplicity, speed and power of PHP4.

I wouldn't be suprised if the "lack of a decent class library" problem isn't addressed at this point as well. With the more advanced OO structures it will be far more attractive to anyone who wishes to develop such a thing. But remember that a decent class library takes a lot of research and planning, how many hours of planning must have gone into the C# and Java libraries?

**mbb** · May 18, 2003, 03:43

Naw, I seriously doubt anything with the name "IIS" will ever be taken seriously, nevermind anything with the name "Windows". Why? "Because it's still MS".

No because - Microsoft + Security == Joke
It's almost on a weekly basis you read about Microsoft security vulnerabilities.

heck, I'd suggest a namechange for IIS, except that'd just be "another MS marketing tactic".

If we had to re-name IIS I think "worm spreader 6" would be fitting.

I can understand where most of these guys are coming from because I thought the same way before I got into the real world. When I was doing small projects where I was the only developer, it was web based, and had a tiny budget, I said the same stuff and had the same views. Now that I've grown as a developer and work in multi million dollar contracts, I see the light in a different manner.

But you started the thread admitting you knew nothing about PHP, so how could you have possibly shared the same views in your young and foolish days?

When you can put together an application that is on a true enterprise worthy level and is of high quality, those costs simply don't matter.

I've never seen the words 'cost' and 'not matter' in the same sentence before when referring to a software project. You must be working for one of the only companies that hasn't been effected by the downturn.

**Dr Livingston** · May 18, 2003, 03:54

Way to go Mbb

**M. Johansson** · May 18, 2003, 04:15

Originally Posted by Phil.Roberts

I wouldn't be suprised if the "lack of a decent class library" problem isn't addressed at this point as well. With the more advanced OO structures it will be far more attractive to anyone who wishes to develop such a thing. But remember that a decent class library takes a lot of research and planning, how many hours of planning must have gone into the C# and Java libraries?

Yes, PHP will most likely adress the lack of a good class library sooner or later. Let's just hope that they don't shoot themselves in the foot by using PEAR. Urk.

**M. Johansson** · May 18, 2003, 04:20

Originally Posted by firepages

who said that ? PHP is a language , J2EE a framework as is .NET

Dr Livingston did:

Originally Posted by Dr Livingston

PHP is heading towards the same level of usage as Java is at though it is proberly going to take another 12- 18 months before it is really appreiciatted as such IMO.

what people are muttering is that they see no reason why PHP can not even now lend itself to Enterprise development , people already use it as such and one can only assume that PHP5 will ensure that sector of PHP grows

I personally agree with you. PHP can definetly lend itself to enterprise development. I just don't see what it can bring to the table that Java or .NET can.

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