Why php?

**Dr Livingston** · May 17, 2003, 10:27

Well said HarryF

In PHP, apps are developed faster, yes, but not often of higher quality.

I agree at the moment this may be the case - though things will change towards more compliant OOP scripting using PHP5 which I can see happening.

This is obvious really; folks will have no choice really but to develop solely with OOP techniques and MVC architechture or their projects and applications will simply not get off the ground.

PHP is heading towards the same level of usage as Java is at though it is proberly going to take another 12- 18 months before it is really appreiciatted as such IMO.

As to .NET and Microsoft in my earlier posting, I must admit that I didn't know it was freely available - though I still think that it'll never reach the stage that PHP is at - and has been for several years - of open source and continued development.

.NET is I'm afraid to state the obvious, isn't open source

It is a properiety technology and solely owned and distributed by Microsoft, yes ?

That was the point I was making...

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 10:33

Originally Posted by mbb

I think that is very unfair. PHP's OO support is good enough and is getting better. It has already been mentioned but the quality of the project comes down to the developers.

No, it's not unfair. The problem is not PHP lack of OO features - it definetly has most of the required features if you are willing to do some workarounds. The problem is that the OO is not forced in the same way that they are with Java/.NET, allowing for sloppy code to a whole other extent than with aforementioned languages.

**Dr Livingston** · May 17, 2003, 10:39

Sloppy scripting ?

Well, yes, maybe though you can say that about a lot of other langauges as well, yes ?

That'll change anyway after PHP5 is released as folks will have no choice but to follow proper OOP design as you have to with Java for example.

Really, the whole debate about using PHP or not is redundant anyway - since about 30% of the whole Internet web page/application development is done with PHP anyway - and this percentage is growing by the year.

It's

**mbb** · May 17, 2003, 10:49

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

No, it's not unfair. The problem is not PHP lack of OO features - it definetly has most of the required features if you are willing to do some workarounds. The problem is that the OO is not forced in the same way that they are with Java/.NET, allowing for sloppy code to a whole other extent than with aforementioned languages.

Did you read this bit? -

the quality of the project comes down to the developers.

Regardless of whether OO programming is forced or not they have a chose with PHP and if OOP is the right chose being 'quality developers' they'll make the right decision.

You can still be 'forced' into using OOP with .NET/Java and produce rubbish results.

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 10:50

Originally Posted by Dr Livingston

Well said HarryF

I agree at the moment this may be the case - though things will change towards more compliant OOP scripting using PHP5 which I can see happening.

This is obvious really; folks will have no choice really but to develop solely with OOP techniques and MVC architechture or their projects and applications will simply not get off the ground.

PHP5 is looking better, but Java and .NET are still more well adapted to enterprise development from a purely technical standpoint. I don't think PHP will seriously compete with them until it can match the feature set more closely. PHP6, probably.

PHP is heading towards the same level of usage as Java is at though it is proberly going to take another 12- 18 months before it is really appreiciatted as such IMO.

What do you base this prediction on? Java is the leading platform for overall enterprise development at the moment... PHP is a scripting language for the web - it doesn't even compete with Java at the moment!

As to .NET and Microsoft in my earlier posting, I must admit that I didn't know it was freely available - though I still think that it'll never reach the stage that PHP is at - and has been for several years - of open source and continued development.

Maybe, and maybe not. None of us can predict that, but so far, it's doing fine. Even if it bombs, we still have the Microsoft .NET Framework, which is not a bad piece of code.

.NET is I'm afraid to state the obvious, isn't open source

It is a properiety technology and solely owned and distributed by Microsoft, yes ?

That was the point I was making...

You talk about Open Source as a benefit in itself. Why? Whether something is open source or not doesn't matter at all when doing a comparison, unless you actually need to modify or look at the source of the framework, which is rarely the case. It's the end quality of the software that matters, not the model that was used to develop it. Saying that PHP is better because it was made with an open source model is kind of like saying that .NET is better because the coders drank cappucino instead of Cola when developing the framework. It's just a tool to reach a goal.

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 10:53

Originally Posted by mbb

Did you read this bit? - Regardless of whether OO programming is forced or not they have a chose with PHP and if OOP is the right chose being 'quality developers' they'll make the right decision.

You can still be 'forced' into using OOP with .NET/Java and produce rubbish results.

Of course. If you are a good developer, you could probably produce excellent software by solely using FORTRAN and writing your code exclusively on used napkins using a ballpoint pen. Tools are only there to reduce the mistakes you make and decrease development time.

**torrent** · May 17, 2003, 10:56

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

...is kind of like saying that .NET is better because the coders drank cappucino instead of Cola when developing the framework.

nice analogy
Mine's an Espresso if you're making.

**torrent** · May 17, 2003, 11:00

Originally Posted by M. Johansson

Of course. If you are a good developer, you could probably produce excellent software by solely using FORTRAN and writing your code exclusively on used napkins using a ballpoint pen. Tools are only there to reduce the mistakes you make and decrease development time.

Actually, FORTRAN is one of the fastest languages out there. Still going strong in some quarters (Fortran 95 I think is the latest). In fact, sod it, I'm going to write a whole web site in Fortran. I'll post back when I'm done (don't wait up)

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 11:01

Originally Posted by torrent

nice analogy
Mine's an Espresso if you're making.

I drack Espresso Lime yesterday at Waynes. It was actually pretty good.

Don't get me wrong - I think Open Source kicks buttocks to both left and right, I just don't think it's a benefit in itself.

**CompiledMonkey** · May 17, 2003, 11:03

Hmm, I haven't found a reason to explore php yet. I guess I'll stick with what I know. :dunno:

**HarryF** · May 17, 2003, 11:19

PHP5 is looking better, but Java and .NET are still more well adapted to enterprise development from a purely technical standpoint. I don't think PHP will seriously compete with them until it can match the feature set more closely.

Name the missing features (for web development). There are some I'll agree in advance but I'd like to hear a more specific answer.

What do you base this prediction on? Java is the leading platform for overall enterprise development at the moment... PHP is a scripting language for the web - it doesn't even compete with Java at the moment!

Broad statement you're right to pick up on. Don't think there's any figures out there but if the feedback I've had from phpPatterns is anything to go by, PHP is attracting Java (and C++) developers when they want to build online apps. For some it's simply that PHP is so widely available and for others it's because it's not MS. Others simply like PHP's "down to earth" nature. With PHP5 on the horizon it's going to get a whole lot more attractive to Java coders.

Maybe, and maybe not. None of us can predict that, but so far, it's doing fine. Even if it bombs, we still have the Microsoft .NET Framework, which is not a bad piece of code.

What figures do you have to show .NET "is doing fine"? The only possible indication I've seen is here. Watching those figures over the months seems to suggest .NET is only making progress in Visual Basic camps (there's no mad rush from C++, C or Java happening).

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 11:31

Originally Posted by HarryF

Name the missing features (for web development). There are some I'll agree in advance but I'd like to hear a more specific answer.

A good class library is the first thing that strikes me.
I'm also annoyed by the fact that PHP lacks a unified development model. There are hojillions of ways to develop a PHP application, which is good, but it would be good with a unified class library, templating framework, accelerator and the like, so that you don't have to use such an enourmous amount of third-party stuff (ore code yourself) for every app.

What figures do you have to show .NET "is doing fine"? The only possible indication I've seen is here. Watching those figures over the months seems to suggest .NET is only making progress in Visual Basic camps (there's no mad rush from C++, C or Java happening).

Oh, I was referring to Ximians progress on Mono. I think they are doing a fine job.

**HarryF** · May 17, 2003, 11:31

One other thing;

The problem is that the OO is not forced in the same way that they are with Java/.NET, allowing for sloppy code to a whole other extent than with aforementioned languages.

A language should not force anything on you IMO. More to the point, there are many good reasons why you should be able to write "bad" code. Perhaps by analogy, do you think anyone would use JavaScript for DHTML if it forced OOP on you? JavaScript has a pretty good object model BTW but you only rarely need it, when putting together code libraries.

The argument is put nicely by Jon Udell in Shipping the Prototype.

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 11:35

Originally Posted by HarryF

A language should not force anything on you IMO.

Well, I think web developers should be forced to use valid XHTML.

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 11:48

mbb, do you have any idea who I am? I dont' say that in the pompous way it sounds, but you've lumped me into some predefined camp. If I did the same to you you'd cry foul, but I'll take any and all opinoins as those expressed by the individual, not by the camp (with the exception of Harry who is rather predictable after many of these conversations).

Free isn't better. A free chair is not a better chair. Free in and of itself isn't better so, the argument is Open Source versus Closed Source. Or, even more fun, proprietary vs Open Source.

I don't even want to get into that. My point was that the "free" word is thrown around so much without any thought for it's meaning. Did I pay for .NET? No, not a cent. I have an IDE, a DB, a framework and a multitude of benefits sitting here on my home computer which in and of themselves cost me nothing.

The standard, and predictable, response is that I had to buy the OS. Yeah, but I had bought the OS already so the cost isn't attributable. To have power at your office you have to buy or lease the building. You don't attribute the cost of your house or office to the cost of power anymore than the cost of you'd attribute the cost of PHP to the cost of the server it runs on, it simply doesn't happen.

So, what are we meaning when we say free if not actual cost, if not open source vs closed source, if not performance, scalability and security? Nothing, it's vapour. Hence my contention with the word free.

Yes, Linux can be better suited than Windows in certain situations (and the reverse is also true, which OS folk hate to admit). Nothing wrong with that (apparently it's impossible for "people like me" to make that statement, according to mbb).

As far as "good code is made by good developers", this statement is equally vapour. If an ASP guy had made that statement to a PHP guy, he would have been laughed off. Why? Because language do have inherent benefits and, obviously, drawbacks. There isn't a single perfect language, framework or platform.

The "good developers" argument is equally vapour if it doesn't encourage good development principles or practices or make better developers in and of itself. As Mattias was trying to say, a "good developer" could program Office in Assembly. Of course he never would though, because he wants the best tool for the job. So, both "free" and the "good developer" argument are vapour, so let's stop using them, yeah?

If we can bring in PHP5, we can bring in .NET 1.1 as well, right? And, thus, if we're talking speed, I'd love to see PHP serve up 1200 TPS. The thing about comparing speed is that speed isn't the issue at a certain level. At a certain level, the issue is the cost to achieve speed or, conversely, the ability to reduce costs by picking a framework, platform or language.

Several tests have shown .NET to have lower transactional costs than other languages, but those would never be accepted because the testees had obviously sold out.

It doesn't really matter, though, because at that level, the choice is often less about speed (I know I'm radiating into other areas, sorry) and more about what a company is established at. Rarely in an organization is there an ideal time to switch, that's the reality.

Harry says his site is living proof that people (individuals) switch from MS to PHP. Wonderful, good for them, kind of like Yahoo!'s foolhardiness then, right?

MS says thousands of companies have switched to .NET. That's literally more than 100K developers employed in those organizations who were using non-MS tools before which have switched.

Whatever, does it matter? Does quantity reflect quality? More people use HTML than anything but that doesn't make it perfect. Besides, Harry's subsection of the world is so small that it's practically useless as a statistic. If I said I got 1000 people together and convinced 10 to become .NET guys that would be equally useless because it's simply too small a sampling (besides, they'd have "sold out" long ago, right?).

I mean, Harry seems so biased that these figures (http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm) obviously mean people are only converting from VB to .NET, which I don't see. I really don't, you'll need to enlighten me there Harry.

And, Harry, if there's no mad rush out of C/C++/Java, how can you claim there is to PHP?

Heck, even Dr Livingston is equating PHP's success to Java's. If we're using Harry's link, it'd take 10 years for that to happen.

I really don't know why I get into these discussions, it's all so useless. I can say the reasons I chose .NET, and I'll be branded as an "MS employee" or "evangelist" no matter how real those reasons are (those reasons will also be branded as "tainted" and I'll be told "PHP can do that too" or "just use this PHP extension").

Likewise, someone else could say the reasons they chose PHP and I'd likely have reason to contend with that. Why? If it's a small-time developer, it's entirely likely the reason they chose it was because it was free, hence it is an advantage to them (even though 80% of PHP developers develop on the Windows platform).

If it's an enterprise developer, the cost of "free" is so low in the overall cost of a project as to be practically nil.

Take any example large or small, and the cost of the software is so small as to be a non-consideration.

Main reasons PHP is pushed by evangelists? Speed, free, open source, ease of learning.

I say .NET is faster, just as free small time and about the same in enterprise, open source doesn't matter and even easier to use.

Both are opinions and until someone states with fact that PHP is faster, cheaper, open source is better and PHP is easier to learn I have nothing to really add besides being contentious, being judged and labelled and wasting my time.

J

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 11:50

"A language should not force anything on you IMO."

Pfft, every language forces something on you, it's called the Rules of Construction, most often based on a paper written in the 1950's and improved upon by the developer of Turbo Pascal (ie: Delphi), who is the same guy who, btw, designed C#.

"By developers for developers" is exactly what .NET was as well, for the record

J

**Dr Livingston** · May 17, 2003, 12:00

What do you base this prediction on? Java is the leading platform for overall enterprise development at the moment... PHP is a scripting language for the web - it doesn't even compete with Java at the moment!

Well didn't I say that was based on the near future ? Say, next year to year and a half ?

PHP is heading forwards at a speed of development which even you must admit is far greater than what .NET is being re-developed at, correct ?

THAT is the pure benifit of open source mate.

**Dr Livingston** · May 17, 2003, 12:09

Both are opinions and until someone states with fact that PHP is faster, cheaper, open source is better and PHP is easier to learn I have nothing to really add besides being contentious, being judged and labelled and wasting my time.

PHP is faster, cheaper, open source is better and PHP is easier to learn.

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 12:12

Let's look at Harry's link, shall we?

For PHP to get to where Java is, it would need to expand to 6 times where it is at now in 18 months.

To put that in perspective, PHP, which is "so far ahead of .NET" is only rated less than 3 times higher than C# (only one of the languages in .NET).

In fact, PHPs status, long term, is the same as it was, according to Harry's link again, exactly as it was in December of 2001: 18 months ago.

In the same period, Java's rating tripled.

Likewise, Visual Basic's (which is apparently on the downside according to Harry) is nearly twice as high? Why? Because langauges are grouped together, so, VB includes VB.NET. According to another site, fully 60% of VB developers now use VB.NET as their primary tool.

Thus, VB.NET and C# hold a combined score (attributing 60% of VB's score to VB.NET) greater than PHP's (while discounting all the other .NET languages of course).

I'm not saying .NET is more widely used than PHP (though, PHP's scoring on Google is often said to be higher... this ranking is based entirely on Google btw), I am simply saying that for PHP to overtake Java would take quite a lot

J

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 12:13

@ DRL

**Dr Livingston** · May 17, 2003, 12:15

Ummm.....

I give up really, I do. If you are so for .NET then that's great; really it is, but I have to ask why are you in the PHP forums ?

Are you attempting to take the piss ? If PHP is so ''backward'' then why post the thread....

... some folk eh ?

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 12:19

I believe PHP is very useful, I just don't believe it will overtake Java, save the world or find the cure for cancer. I don't think it can do "everything", nor do I think it will become the dominant anything and, to be honest, I hope it doesn't.

To put that in perspective, I hope nothing does. I hope there is always an environment thick enough with innovation that we never are left with only one "choice".

That goes for OS's, IDE's, frameworks, platforms, development methodologies, everything.

I hope we always have a multiplicity of choices. In fact, I think the current 3-4 choices (Java, .NET, PHP and CFM) are too few.

I don't want .NET to win, I don't want PHP to lose, I simply have a problem with misinformation and mis-statements in any forum

J

**HarryF** · May 17, 2003, 13:22

And, Harry, if there's no mad rush out of C/C++/Java, how can you claim there is to PHP?

Where did I claim there was a mad rush to PHP? All I said was I've had contact with people from Java and C++ backgrounds who are using PHP for building web apps.

And I don't think anyone is saying PHP is going to be the #1 programming language one day, toppling Java - not at all. But PHP already is the most popular language in it's arena (the web) and I believe it's becoming more attractive to Java developers (for example) wishing to build web applications (which may simply be a front end for Java business logic).

Harry says his site is living proof that people (individuals) switch from MS to PHP.

Jeremy. I've warned you about this before. From now on please read exactly what I say (i.e. I have never said this). Please do not misquote me. Please do not turn me into some cartoon of an "Open Source Fanatic".

The same can easily be done to MS Badge wearing drug addicts that flip out the moment the words "Open" and "Source" appear in the same sentence fearing this somehow threatens their dealer.

**Jeremy W.** · May 17, 2003, 13:33

I was going to write a nice message for you, but since there are obviously so many "MS drug addicts" running around I'm probably just having an illusory experience or something.

Heck, one time I said something similarl and I got so much hatemail I couldn't find my ***** enlargement helpers.

J

**M. Johansson** · May 17, 2003, 14:58

Originally Posted by HarryF

And I don't think anyone is saying PHP is going to be the #1 programming language one day, toppling Java - not at all.

Ahem.

Originally Posted by 'Dr. Livingston

PHP is heading towards the same level of usage as Java is at though it is proberly going to take another 12- 18 months before it is really appreiciatted as such IMO.

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