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  1. #1
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Hi Guys & Gals,

    As a citizen of Israel I would like to know what you think of the recent happenings in Israel, which side do you think is right, and why?
    As it is now, its kinda Israel against the rest of the world in terms of media, so I would like to know how other people see it outside of Israel and the USA.

    Thanks,
    Itay
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    Hi Itay,

    The main coverage we had in the Uk was over the deaths in the police station. I think that it is the apparent 'mob-mentality', on both sides, that is being touted by the press at the moment. A bloody body being thrown out of a window makes good TV, sadly. The political / religious cause of the long running dispute aren't really being covered.

    Can you give us a summary of how and why the conflict is happening? Not the current flare up, but the original cause, as you see it.

    Peter
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  3. #3
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Itay
    Hi Guys & Gals,

    As a citizen of Israel I would like to know what you think of the recent happenings in Israel, which side do you think is right, and why?
    As it is now, its kinda Israel against the rest of the world in terms of media, so I would like to know how other people see it outside of Israel and the USA.

    Thanks,
    Itay
    Neither side is right.

    Isreal needs to realize that it can't be an ever expanding bully relying on the power of the United States to back it up. It needs to work peacefully with its neighbors or risk being destroyed through racial and religious hatred.

    Palestinians and Arabs need to learn to co-exist with and learn from their neighbors instead of resorting to violence and hatred.

    Neither side has seriously thought about peace or the wealth and welfare of the other.

    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  4. #4
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Peter -
    The linch was in a palestanien police station on 2 (or 3) israeli soldiers that wound there by accident. The riots started on new years and on a saturday in Israel, thus we had little news, but the reason it started was that an Israeli politician went up to a religious muslim ground and somehow started it, thats all I know.

    Wayne -
    I have to totally disagree with you. Israel has always been for the peace process and the welfare of others. We are a young country with not much resources and it it hard enough with our own and we also have to provide the palestinians.
    What neighbours do we not work peacefully with? Only Lebanon, Syria and Palestinians. With all due respect, there is no working peacefully with those countries, for obvious reasons. And what kind of bullying do you mean? We don't expand, we only give, the state of Israel gets smaller and smaller all the time due to the fact we give out areas to the palestinians. We may not be righteous but you can not say that the palestinians are.

    Best Regards,
    Itay

    P.S. I apologize for all spelling errors )
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    It's the begining of the end. Full scale war will erupt very soon, but an unknow European leader will forge a 7 year peace deal as according to Revelation. I say stockpile food and move to the wilderness ASAP, as the wrath of God is about to be unleashed (I'm serious).

    [Edited by cisites on 10-17-2000 at 10:54 AM]

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    Itay,

    I mean what are the original reasons for the dispute - it's been going on for decades, hasn't it.

    Peter
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    Read post on terrorism. There has been some related stuff there. I will add my two cents and ask Itay a few questions.

    Aside from the age-old conflict between Jew and Arabs which I understand arguably goes back to the time of Abraham, this is my very vague understanding of more "recent" events (from last century). Itay, please correct. Also, would like more of the Palestinian and general Arab perspective as I realize my info comes primarily from my stay on an Israeli kibbutz and from what I have learned here in the U.S., which probably has exposed me more to the Jewish perspective. I should add that, although I use a (misspelled) Hebrew alias, I am not Jewish.

    The immediate disagreements and peace talks have been dealing with issues which arose out of two primary events - formal creation of current Israeli state in 1948 and the 6 Day war in the 1960s (I can't remember the exact year). Many Arabs and Palestinians in particular feel that the creation of Israel and recognition of it by the international community in effect robbed them of their land. What I can't remember is exactly how the international community was involved. Was the creation of Israel part of any Peace Treaties associated with WW2? (If you want more info on what, other than history, Jews saw as their claim to that particulr region, I suggest you research the Zionist and the kibbutzim movements.) In the late 60s, I believe, there was some very intense fighting. In the "Six Day War", Israel gained control over the Golan Heights and some other key areas now under dispute. Again, history alludes me and I hesitate to say too much because of my ignorance, so I am not sure exactly who all was involved. I believe that it was during this war that Israel gained control of some land from Lebanon and/or Syria. The Golan Heights has been a key area of dispute, but recent talks have lead to serious progress. I have to say that, from what I know, it seems pretty big of Israel to offer this area back as part of peace negotiations, as it is strategically a powerful position. It is my understanding that this was one of the main areas from which Israeli troops were attacked during the "Six Day War" and that its capture was at great cost.

    Move on to present, and we have the visit to the Temple Mount by the Jewish leader of a political group opposed to peace negotiations. This was arguably what set off the current violence. There is a lot going on here. There are groups on both sides opposed to peace who, I think, will use what starts out as seemingly little issues to sidetrack peace. Or who will take big steps - let's not forget that the last Prime Minister who was as serious about Peace as the current on was assasinated. The Peace Talks are now focusing on issues which seem irreconcilable, especially Jerusalem. If it weren't for Jerusalem and the fact that both Muslims and Jews see not only the city, but one specific part of it, as one of their most important holy sites, I think that these talks would be over and things would be resolved. But, Itay, how can the issue of the Temple Mount area be resolved?

    A few other questions for Itay and anyone else:

    What exactly is the status of Palestinians as opposed to Israeli Arabs in terms of political status within Israel? Do they have the rights of citizens?

    Also, up until recently, it seemed to me that the peace process was primarily about Israel giving up land in exchange for Palestinian authorities agreeing to go after terrorists groups, etc. But more recently, I have heard that the Palestinians are also trying to negotiate for correction of human rights abuses. What do these include? I realize that there are issues over the imprisonment of political prisoners and, in times like the current one, where violence errupts, the treatment of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs by Israeli police and army officers. But it sounded like there were some other issues - none of which I have heard clearly explained.

    I agree that this is not a black and white situation. I find myself listening to a person representing an Israeli Jewish perspective and I think that makes sense, I totally understand. Then I hear someone representing a Palestinian perspective and I think the same thing. I can see both sides.

  8. #8
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    Nice post, sahar. To be completely honest, I really could care less about the happenings way over in Israel. If they don't effect me or anyone I know, I'm not all that interested.

  9. #9
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Dear Sahar,

    I highly respect your post, you brought a lot of information I did not regard as important to my knowledge and made it a bit more clearer to me.

    First of all, to all of whom may say this sooner or later, yes, I am extremely biased to my countries side, but not to my religions side. I am not religious, and to any who knows a little about Israel's internal affairs knows what I mean.

    That particular area in Jerusalem is held sacred to all 3 monothesthics (sp?) religions: Jeudism, Christianism and Muslim. Each as I see it with his own rightful claim.

    What sahar said about the capturing in the 6 day war in 1967 was that we captured the Golan Heights and the Hermon frmo Syria, and if you take a look at the map you will see the strategic importance and how dangerous it is to us. For the americans, think about the russians having a balcony over the biggest water reserve in the US or anything of that stature, because that's exactly what the golan heights serve to the syrians, lebanese or whatever enemy country.

    On the issue of Yitzhak Rabin who was murdered on 1995, all of Israel regard that as a sorrowful incident and remember it to this day.

    Now to answer the question why this started.
    Between around 1917-1948, the british had control over the land of palestine as it was called then. There were many jew's already by the time they achieved control from the turks and more until 1948 when they lost control. On November 29th, 1947 (my birthday coincidenticly ) the UN announced the rise of 2 new states in the land of Palestine. An arab state and a jewish state. The jewish were happy with this announcement, as this it was all they wanted. But the arabs were against it, and by the time the british left, on May 10th, 1948, they managed to supply the arabs with many weapons the jewish did not have. And when on that date then David Ben Gurion, first prime minister of Israel, announced the new state, the day after, the Independence War as we call it broke out. Israel won the war, and conquered all of the lands given to the arabs. And some of these lands were jewish inhabited lands, such as kibbutzes, such as Yehiam, which my grandparents founded and still live there (I do not live there).

    We do not know or at least I don't know most of the issues of the peace process but the major ones. As I said, the israeli's are not clear of blame, but with all due respect, Araffat is playing a game and he is playing it d*mn well excellent. He knows what he wants to achieve, and he uses the media and the so called abuse of human rights to do it. If anyone saw the picture of the 12 year old boy murdered in the riots and wants a full account of what happened I will happily tell you.

    And for conclusion, one of the coverages of the riots on TV, an arab boy said something very smart but yet very wrong in its second part:
    "Israel is a country with 2 flags... How can a country be with 2 flags? A country should only have one."

    I still walk with that sentence since I saw it, pondering what it really means.

    Addition:
    This is nothing personal to marc or anything, but here is why it should matter and be clearer to you all:
    If this escalates more this will be WW3, and its quite logical if you look at it from our perspective. We have no trouble in power to take out the whole of the gaza strip and the west bank, but then we'd be taken out, and then the USA will step in, and whats next? If anyone saw the movie "Tommorow Never Dies" then you should remember one sentence: "War is now fought, not by weapons, but by media, and the new artillery are sattellites." This is a horrifying living example of this.

    [Edited by Itay on 10-17-2000 at 05:34 PM]
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  10. #10
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    mjames86, I hate to be attacking, but I would like to comment on your post. Your outlook is a very arrogant one. The same type of thing happened with the uprise of the Nazi's in Germany. People did not seem to be interested in what was happening, and than look what happened.

  11. #11
    is very happy now :) Itay Neeman's Avatar
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    Dear Rob,

    I disagree with your post somewhat. Its not right to not care, but we all do that, its not arrogance, its the human nature.

    To all people:
    Call me whatever you want for saying the thing I am going to say now, but I live in a f***ed up country (dont delete this please) and its totally screwed. But I still live here, and I am jewish in my blood and jewish in my soul, and this is my homeland, maybe its the palestine homeland as well, I do not deny that, but its also MINE. And when one of my closest friends tells me she started crying because she was scared it affects me directly. I do not ask you to be as aware and sympathetic as I do, but you should at least know what this could lead to, and that it affects all of us, not just me and everyone here, all of us.
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  12. #12
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    If I'm not interested in these happenings over in the Middle East, I can't change that. I didn't mean anything else.


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    I started this whole tyrade (sp?) on why this should matter to us all, but I'll skip that. I think if we all think about it, we can come up with reasons. That said, I agree with Itay's assessment that the closer you are, the more it does (and should) matter. But I do have to wonder why those who keep posting "I don't care" posts are reading this thread. And checking back.

    To any citizens of nations surrounding Israel,I have a related question that I would love a response to: If this current conflict were to lead to full-out war within Israel, what would your country's response be? Is this an internal conflict that your country would let those involved work out for themselves, or is the involvement of surrounding nations inevitable? I ask this because I don't want to jump to any conclusions. I do think it is fair to say that the U.S. and its media are somewhat biased towards Israel in this situation, which is why I'd like the other perspective. Potential U.S. involvement seems based on the "fact" that other surrounding Arab/Muslim nations would soon get involved and Israel would be a lone state trying to fight many enemies from many sides. What do you view as the larger potential effects of all-out war in Israel? I think that there is this underlying belief here in the U.S. that many of the surrounding coutries, or at least factions within those countries, would welcome all-out war in the region as it would create a cause around which Arabs could be united and it could be used to bring about a unified Arab state. Again, I would like the view of Arabs so I can have a more balanced perspective, keeping in mind that, like all people everywhere, the views of one Arab cannot and do not represent the views of all Arabs.

  14. #14
    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Killing is wrong. Both sides are guilty. It doesn't matter who "started it". You'd think if being good in the eyes of God, Allah, whatever is so important to religious groups that they would see that killing another human being for any reason is absolutely wrong regardless of the circumstances.


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    Luzer-->It's great to have you back. Thanks for posting again.

    BTW, I live in the US, and I have a hard time taking sides. This seems like an irreconcilable difference. Both sides want the same piece of property. I don't want a war, but I don't see how they will ever solve this. It's bound to end up in war. Even if the governments could come to some kind of agreement, and I don't think they could, there would always be religious and/or political groups that would destroy the peace.
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    It's a rather interesting fight. This particular instantiation of it is (in my opinion) just the latest in a series of sequels that will never end. Unfortunately, while most residents there support the peace process (or did until three weeks ago - polls say support is slipping), history does tell us that the extremist ideologues usually command the loudest voice and the most willing participants. I think it unlikely that any of the parties will be willing to make major concessions to any other party, and major concessions is what it would take to calm the fever boiling over there. Should people unaffected personally by this care? I think so, in that we are all citizens of the world, and here in the US, at least, we would be affected should complete war break out, as the US is duty-bound to provide support to her allies. Is it likely that unaffected peoples will care? No. As Italy pointed out, it is human nature not to care about those things that do not directly affect us - and even moreso not to care about a group of people that are "not us".
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    Destiny Manager Plebius's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jamesglewisf
    Luzer-->It's great to have you back. Thanks for posting again.
    I'll stop in every once in a while. Just not as much since I'm using the internet less and living life more.


  18. #18
    Sports Publisher mjames's Avatar
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    Originally posted by jamesglewisf
    Luzer-->It's great to have you back. Thanks for posting again.
    Definitely, great to have you back, man!

  19. #19
    SitePoint Addict jamesglewisf's Avatar
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    It looks like Arafat is no longer or never was interested in a diplomatic solution to Mideast peace. Now he is calling for the Palestinian uprisings to "continue, wave after wave...until victory." YIKES!!!

    I read this on www.cnn.com
    In reaction to continued clashes and the Arab summit's condemnation of Israel, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak said Israel would have to take a "time out" from the peace process. Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat said he "expected this" from Barak, and indicated he had no intention of giving up his quest for Palestinian statehood. "Our people [are] continuing the road to Jerusalem, the capital of our independent Palestinian state," Arafat said. "To accept or not to accept it, let him go to hell."
    This is beginning to make me really nervous. It sounds like they are going to solve the Jerusalem issue with war, not talk. I'm sure the US and other nations will jump into the middle of it also.

    What do you think of all of this?
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  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Programmer~ Elledan's Avatar
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    The Balance is shifting... every moment war can start, or not...

    The situation is now so delicate, that it probably will get really bloody. I'm afraid that many more people will die before everyone finally comes to their senses.
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  21. #21
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Elledan
    The Balance is shifting... every moment war can start, or not...

    The situation is now so delicate, that it probably will get really bloody. I'm afraid that many more people will die before everyone finally comes to their senses.
    They have been fighting for more than 2000 years? Are you sure there are any sense left? It will take a generation of young on both sides to finally realize that watching their friends and family dying isn't worth it and put a stop to it. I am afraid the generation in charge today has already been lost to hatred, a hatred that reaches back to history's beginnings.
    Wayne Luke
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  22. #22
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    Originally posted by Itay
    Peter -
    The linch was in a palestanien police station on 2 (or 3) israeli soldiers that wound there by accident. The riots started on new years and on a saturday in Israel, thus we had little news, but the reason it started was that an Israeli politician went up to a religious muslim ground and somehow started it, thats all I know.

    They where not there by accident, the palestinian police instead of showing them the way, detained them, and took them to a middle of a muslim city, infact there are also claims that the soldiers where spies 3 things clearly disprove that palestinian claim.

    1. The soldiers had israili license plates.
    2. as seen in the video, they where wearing camoflauge
    3. One of the soldiers was a recent russian imagrent, anyone who knows anything knows that a russian imagrent would not be sent to serve undercover as a palestinian.
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    Originally posted by W. Luke
    It will take a generation of young on both sides
    Unfortunately, the official Palestinians TV broadcasts messages to kill all Jews, and Palestinian children are encouraged to become martyrs. There are training camps for young childrent to learn to be terrorists. You don't find anything like that on the Israeli side.

    USAToday reported today that Palestinian mothers are complaining that Palestinian security forces are driving children from school to confrontations with Israeli soldiers. http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/2...8/2901272s.htm

    >>>
    ''The Palestinian Authority must put an end to this phenomenon. We urge you to issue instructions to your police force to stop sending innocent children to their death.'' . . .
    Like other protesting parents, Aisheh declines to allow her full name to be published for fear of reprisals. A nurse from Gaza who spoke out on Palestinian TV against sending children to the flash points was condemned in the Palestinian media as a traitor. Other individuals who refuse to allow their names to be published say they have been threatened by armed Fatah officials for discouraging their children from participating in the clashes.
    <<<


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