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  1. #26
    SitePoint Guru etidd's Avatar
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    Red face

    I'm glad it's a joke! .
    ---
    That doesn't negate nor make light of what's coming down the pipe in AmeriKa.
    Yes, they are increasing mandates, and, yes, there is a net loss of freedom not only in AmeriKa, but across the globe.

    <snip>
    Last edited by ralph.m; Apr 4, 2013 at 02:59. Reason: best not to address politics here

  2. #27
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etidd
    I mean, really, look at the state of the world rapidly declining....
    Sometimes it amazes me how much people forget that the world was going to pot several years ago, and also several decades ago, and also several centuries ago. There's only one way to fix this old, old, old problem: get rid of people.

    This may get me reprimanded on these boards because people, largely...
    Actually, it would be the complete breaking of the very clear rules about posting politics and religion. The rules say: don't do it. Not unless it's governments hurting their citizens by making inaccessible websites, for which they should be forced to watch endless Wiggles reruns.

  3. #28
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    dresden_phoenix's Avatar
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    Hahaha. Between Google and this , this April 1st was surely filled with yuks.

    April Fool's nonsense aside, certification is one reason why master plumbers and electricians make more money than master web developers. As long as we have untalented jacklegs who will work for less than minimum wage in the market, the prices we can command will be lower than they should be.
    Yes and no. Master plumbers, electricians, even bricklayers and restaurants ( if not cooks themselves) need licenses because their work directly affects health and well being. The problem in any industry is usually the CLIENT. Even tho the work takes time, knowledge, materials and effort, most client will often choose a vendor whom they can what to do and for how much. This happens in every industry.

    I mean , I have had clients look at a piece of code as see a .. menu.. and request that it not be a list (UL/OL)... but P tags instead. No rational reason , it was just THEIR SITE and if I wanted to be paid.. well.

    I made the mistake once to try to show off by showing another client all the different stages of graceful degradation down to: CSS OFF. Her response was to suggest 'USING headings to make the text larger even if CSS is off"..." you know that way it will look closer to what we want even if the viewer has CSS off" ::sighs:: "you aren't going to be 'hard to work with ' about this?

    In either case, nothing died but my pride. Still many times when I see horrendous code on a site i don't assume is just hacks doing these things, sometimes I wonder if some poor, but well skilled designer was trying to meet a mortgage payment by appeasing a client.


    Four years ago I had a job interview with LARGE CORP in WI. One chief requirement was to know Dreamweaver which I did, but at the interview I made the mistake of mentioning that I did all of my work on the code view mode, and cloud work just as well on wordpad or text edit. This probably didn't backfire on me as much as my reaction to when they told me that management staff wanted to have the ability to make changes, edits and 'approvals' to my work (so since they weren't coders) the WYSIWYG was PIVOTAL 'skill'

    Essentially , may clients believe that if you don't do as they say it is not because you speak from knowledge or experience that should be trusted and believed. It's either because you are "prima donna" or don't have the knowledge or skill to pull off what they are saying in the way they are requesting it.

    And dont make go into how many clients want a flash site... built for their iPhone/iPad audience.


    Licenses may help to raise the compensation scale by reducing the competition ( form the low-skilled end) , then again, it may have no effect other than to require an extra fee for us. That is if we as an members of the industry aren't able to create a certain amount of respect for the EXCLUSIVE SKILLS ( "this is what I can do that you cant/shouldn't" ) necessary for the work we do. In fact they may just serve to ( as previous post have grumbled) to make people say "my nephew could have done what I asked if it wasn't for the big-bad-government not giving him his license" And that not so much politics as it is an industry not being able to establish what for lack of a better word I am going to term a "mystique"

  4. #29
    SitePoint Guru etidd's Avatar
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    Oh, and by the way, God Bless you all for what you do for me here at the SitePoint Forums. Blessings.

  5. #30
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Yes, etidd, great stuff happens here.

    I hate to do it, as I enjoy a good political rant, but as Stomme noted, it's been decided not to allow political discussions around here, as they (understandably) get too heated, and are not what we're here for anyway. So no offense intended, but I thought it best to remove a few comments above.

  6. #31
    SitePoint Guru etidd's Avatar
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    Okay, Ralph, I know politics isn't what we're here for. Like I said, I have other venues for political activism.

    Although, this post is of a political matter and the original poster asked for thoughts on the subject; so, I'll make it quick and simple.

    I staunchly disagree with any mandates on web developers to be licensed.

    God Bless,

    Tyler

  7. #32
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by etidd View Post
    Although, this post is of a political matter and the original poster asked for thoughts on the subject
    True, although it was intended as a joke, of course.

    I staunchly disagree with any mandates on web developers to be licensed.
    Agreed, it's not workable, and open to corruption. Fun to have a laugh about, though.

  8. #33
    I solve practical problems. bronze trophy
    Michael Morris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    April Fools joke aside, Ive always considered web designers to be basically "front-end" and web developers to be "back-end". I can understand certification for jobs such as electricians and plumbers as there is a definite safety aspect...

    There is a safety aspect to what we do though - data safety, prevention of identity theft. Part of solving the problem of internet crime is removing the ease of it. The only way to do that is to raise the bar on how secure sites are. If we ever see certification for web developers it will likely be caused by a need to rachet up security on sites. I can certainly see a certification requirement be put in place to develop websites for government and financial entities and their immediate partners. Once that standard is set it will tend to propagate.

  9. #34
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Morris View Post
    If we ever see certification for web developers it will likely be caused by a need to rachet up security on sites.
    Indeed. There are pretty stiff penalties already in place for not dealing with personal info like credit cards properly. Even recently, I've seen companies with thousands of completely unprotected credit card numbers in their system. It's amazing this still goes on. At least it's not hard to get them to fix the situation. (You only have to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines they are liable for if anyone finds out.)

  10. #35
    SitePoint Guru etidd's Avatar
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    Yes, Ralph, there are stiff penalties in place for businesses who do not properly secure sensitive data. Those penalties would include hackers getting a hold of credit card information and other sensitive data, putting the parties at a loss in position to sue the pants off the entity, probably for such losses that would put the firm out of business. It's called an infringement of the common law.

    Where I think most of you are getting conned is that the government should not stand to gain from such infringements (the government has no "Corpus Delicti"- look it up in Black's Law Dictionary), which means it's not lawful for the government to collect go money.

    Certainly, it is possible for an entity other than the government to set licensing standards (licensing doesn't sound like a bad idea in and of itself), but beware the notion that "More Government is the Answer". Soon, they'll be deciding who can be posting web content, and we all know the repercussions to free speech rights when big Gov. decides who gets licensed as a developer and who doesn't.

  11. #36
    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Morris
    There is a safety aspect to what we do though - data safety, prevention of identity theft. Part of solving the problem of internet crime is removing the ease of it.
    Damn, here there are no penalties for that kind of crap. $husband's motorcycle-lesson teacher (who owned that business) tried to find hosting. $husband built a simple Perl backend that could do everything, but the hosters in question stated they only did PHP. As $husband looked into their setup, they did all the obvious mistakes (very open to SQL injection, incorrect certificates and a bizaare mail server setup with incorrect settings... you could log into any of their customers' accounts simply by having access to one of the accounts!), and they kept stating everything wrong was at the business-owner's end. They finally went out of business, fortunately, but the number of monkeys who got their hands on a server and say "Hey! Let's start a hosting company! We'll learn on the job!" is sadly high.

    AT&T didn't get into any trouble leaving emails sitting out in the open for those iPhone owners, but the guy who wrote a little script to send in iPhone ID's (via an open, public URL) to get the resulting related e-mail address, he's getting some ungodly amount of time behind bars (yeah, he's douchebag material in many ways, and that didn't help his case...). This is a bad judicial setup: allow companies to be sloppy with user data, wait until there's a leak, then hope it was done by white-hats or grey-hats so you know who they are and can punish them. If it's black-hatters who don't tell anyone and just sell the info? Oh, whoops. But let's not make companies accountable anyway. Same goes for the Sony story.

    Security guys are like accessibility guys in that they feel their area should be a major basic part of web development, but isn't.

  12. #37
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    I don't think that having to be licensed or certified in one's industry is necessarily a bad thing. Although the article is a joke, I would not put it past our government here in Canada to regulate some sort of licensing requirement if there was a fee involved and if it was easy to get certified. Would be just another tax

  13. #38
    SitePoint Zealot charles_i's Avatar
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    It would be impossible to have any kind of certification for Web Developers. As Sitepointers know the coding world is changing so fast that last year's code is already becoming obsolete.

    Five years ago we weren't too concerned about mobile and responsive design (or I wasn't in corporate targeted world.) I had the opposite problem, large companies and banks were still using IE6 and, even worse, Lotus Notes as their default browser! You can't just tell these people they need to upgrade. Legacy is still a huge issue. They don't teach that in school. Up next - whose ready for coding for watches?

    The opposite end of the spectrum is that coding for emails has to be done with HTML 1.0 - they don't teach that in school either (I would guess). In fact that was my trick question when I interviewed freelancers to fill in for me while I was on holiday a few years ago. I handed them one of our complicated email layouts and said, "how would you code this?" The winner said "the most basic HTML possible."

    So certification is a ridiculous idea, new coding languages and methods are changing too quickly.

    On the other hand designers are a dime a dozen - everyone wants to be a designer (or a photographer, or a film director, or a "musician") yawn...

    Then there's the crazy notion being promoted now by people in 'higher learning' that "everyone should learn to code." I don't agree. Not unless you have endless patience, enjoy endless frustration, and can shrug away the stress that comes with the phrase that I live in fear of - that keeps me up at night, "...and how long will it take?"

  14. #39
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles_i View Post
    Not unless you have endless patience, enjoy endless frustration, and can shrug away the stress that comes with the phrase that I live in fear of - that keeps me up at night, "...and how long will it take?"
    I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who experiences it like this!

  15. #40
    SitePoint Zealot charles_i's Avatar
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    Hi Ralph,

    Thanks. Nice to have a "brother in arms"! Because as you know, the background to that is that whatever your answer is to that dreaded question, your only ever given half that amount of time.

    I always tell people a Web Developer is like a Combat Soldier, you prepare and you wait for battle and you never know when it's going to come.

    Charles
    P.S. I was in Melbourne in 2010 - wanted to drop by the Sitepoint Mecca but there wasn't enough time.

  16. #41
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    I think that is not a good idea, the designers should have freedom, they can register their companies why the individuals?


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