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  1. #1
    Just Blow It bronze trophy
    DaveMaxwell's Avatar
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    US to require licenses for designers

    Found an interesting article about licensing designers. Makes some legitimate points. Any thoughts?

    http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013...e-law-in-2015/








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    Do you think that I'll be fooling myself if I tried to get one even if I'm not from the US?

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    SitePoint Wizard webcosmo's Avatar
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    I don`t see any reason for that, a good designer is recognised by his skill, a paper doesn`t make you a good one.

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    This would create an opportunity to bring the craft back to a professional standard and my even create some jobs.

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    From Italy with love silver trophybronze trophy
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    Good one.

  7. #7
    I solve practical problems. bronze trophy
    Michael Morris's Avatar
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    April Fool's nonsense aside, certification is one reason why master plumbers and electricians make more money than master web developers. As long as we have untalented jacklegs who will work for less than minimum wage in the market, the prices we can command will be lower than they should be.

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    Team SitePoint
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    kind of pointless IMHO. A good designer does a good job. period.

    This is just lead to more solo outsourcing.

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    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    kind of pointless IMHO. A good designer does a good job. period.
    Michael makes a good point though: there have always been good/talented plumbers and electricians too.


    I waver on the idea of certification. On the one hand I notice how many more types of (good) individuals become very knowledgeable in the field of IT and are able to get jobs based on what they know rather than a paper (whereas if you're good at anything else, without that paper you usually can't find anything); on the other hand the low-end knowledge-poor can get decent clients because web design is a lemon market: clients don't have anything to be able to distinguish good developers from bad, unless they themselves already know enough code to be able to look under the hood and see if there's quality there. That's one reason for certification (the other simply showing you know laws pertaining to things like safety... this is actually why electricians and radiation technologists need certification, not so much proof they can wire something well or take a good x-ray).

  10. #10
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    I'd like to see most of the designers I've dealt with become certified, but not in the way described by the article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    I'd like to see most of the designers I've dealt with become certified, but not in the way described by the article.
    I don't understand what you mean... what kind of certification would you ask for? Creativity?

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    Quote Originally Posted by molona View Post
    I don't understand what you mean... what kind of certification would you ask for? Creativity?
    See definition 4: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/certified

    Usage example

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    Quote Originally Posted by ralph.m View Post
    That's the meaning that I thought was used in the article: meeting a certain standard

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    .... you made my jump a bit. Joking aside a strongly feel some regulation needs to be placed. Can anybody start building a house? In theory yes, but you still need a building permit and to abide by property building regulations. That being said I feel some regulation might be a good thing. This will not only weed out any cowboys, but it will assist clients to know what to look for as they will now have a form of regulation to go by.
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    Wow - never thought an April Fools joke would lead to a serious discussion
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    It's all Geek to me silver trophybronze trophy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMaxwell View Post
    Wow - never thought an April Fools joke would lead to a serious discussion
    Humor is a very serious affair.

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    SitePoint Zealot charles_i's Avatar
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    Funny how most people think a Web Designer and a Web Developer are the same thing - actually most people have never heard of a Web Developer and seem to think stuff just gets up on the web instantly - as soon as the designer is finished with it. Yet they understand that someone who designs cars doesn't build them.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by charles_i View Post
    they understand that someone who designs cars doesn't build them.
    Heck, I had no idea about that!

    I guess most people just want a car, and don't care how it came to be, or want a hamburger, and don't think about the screams and blood of the slaughterhouse. They also just want a website, and don't care how it comes about. 'Web designer' has come to be a general term for those who don't really know what's involved.

  19. #19
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    April Fools joke aside, Ive always considered web designers to be basically "front-end" and web developers to be "back-end". I can understand certification for jobs such as electricians and plumbers as there is a definite safety aspect but for anything in the general it industry there isnt too much point as for one thing a % of what you learn will probably be out of date by the time you sit an exam. I think that vendor-specific qualifications aren't too useful as you might study one then find a future employer uses another manufacturer. Some can be very expensive, for example i think the CCNA one costs a few Łk to do initially and has to be renewed every so many years (may be yearly) and if you have any of the "follow-on" qualifications from the CCNA and the CCNA expires then all the "follow-on" ones expire as well.

    I would rather go for one like the Network+ which afaik is vendor-independent, but then it raises the question of what countries are they "valid" in. A qualification or certification in one country might not be worth the paper it's written on in another country which may have its own qualifications or certifications.

    The last time I had as flick through at web design and/or development job adverts (within 50ish miles from where I live), they all basically emphasised experience over qualifications.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    Ive always considered web designers to be basically "front-end" and web developers to be "back-end".
    But then there are front-ed web developers, too (like those who do JS, web apps and so on).

    Anyhow, I was thinking that, short of some kind of official web dev certification (which would have a lot of problems anyway) there could at least be an official set of benchmark skills on a website somewhere, and designers/devs could could indicate which of those skills they have. Of course, there's no guarantee that people would be honest, but at least it would provide some kind of reference point for those looking for a service provider, and there could be a list of criteria for each skill that potential clients could quiz the designer about.

    A reference like that would provide a guide for devs as well as customers. If each skill are had a detailed list of what skills are really required for a particular area, it would at least nudge web people to challenge themselves to make sure they had everything under their belt. A lot of web devs aren't even aware of the skills they lack (such as having next to no awareness of accessibility, unobtrusive JS etc.)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpacePhoenix View Post
    April Fools joke aside, Ive always considered web designers to be basically "front-end" and web developers to be "back-end". I can understand certification for jobs such as electricians and plumbers as there is a definite safety aspect...

    There is a safety aspect to what we do though - data safety, prevention of identity theft. Part of solving the problem of internet crime is removing the ease of it. The only way to do that is to raise the bar on how secure sites are. If we ever see certification for web developers it will likely be caused by a need to rachet up security on sites. I can certainly see a certification requirement be put in place to develop websites for government and financial entities and their immediate partners. Once that standard is set it will tend to propagate.

  22. #22
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    ralph.m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Morris View Post
    If we ever see certification for web developers it will likely be caused by a need to rachet up security on sites.
    Indeed. There are pretty stiff penalties already in place for not dealing with personal info like credit cards properly. Even recently, I've seen companies with thousands of completely unprotected credit card numbers in their system. It's amazing this still goes on. At least it's not hard to get them to fix the situation. (You only have to mention the hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines they are liable for if anyone finds out.)

  23. #23
    SitePoint Guru etidd's Avatar
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    Yes, Ralph, there are stiff penalties in place for businesses who do not properly secure sensitive data. Those penalties would include hackers getting a hold of credit card information and other sensitive data, putting the parties at a loss in position to sue the pants off the entity, probably for such losses that would put the firm out of business. It's called an infringement of the common law.

    Where I think most of you are getting conned is that the government should not stand to gain from such infringements (the government has no "Corpus Delicti"- look it up in Black's Law Dictionary), which means it's not lawful for the government to collect go money.

    Certainly, it is possible for an entity other than the government to set licensing standards (licensing doesn't sound like a bad idea in and of itself), but beware the notion that "More Government is the Answer". Soon, they'll be deciding who can be posting web content, and we all know the repercussions to free speech rights when big Gov. decides who gets licensed as a developer and who doesn't.

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    SitePoint Wizard Stomme poes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Morris
    There is a safety aspect to what we do though - data safety, prevention of identity theft. Part of solving the problem of internet crime is removing the ease of it.
    Damn, here there are no penalties for that kind of crap. $husband's motorcycle-lesson teacher (who owned that business) tried to find hosting. $husband built a simple Perl backend that could do everything, but the hosters in question stated they only did PHP. As $husband looked into their setup, they did all the obvious mistakes (very open to SQL injection, incorrect certificates and a bizaare mail server setup with incorrect settings... you could log into any of their customers' accounts simply by having access to one of the accounts!), and they kept stating everything wrong was at the business-owner's end. They finally went out of business, fortunately, but the number of monkeys who got their hands on a server and say "Hey! Let's start a hosting company! We'll learn on the job!" is sadly high.

    AT&T didn't get into any trouble leaving emails sitting out in the open for those iPhone owners, but the guy who wrote a little script to send in iPhone ID's (via an open, public URL) to get the resulting related e-mail address, he's getting some ungodly amount of time behind bars (yeah, he's douchebag material in many ways, and that didn't help his case...). This is a bad judicial setup: allow companies to be sloppy with user data, wait until there's a leak, then hope it was done by white-hats or grey-hats so you know who they are and can punish them. If it's black-hatters who don't tell anyone and just sell the info? Oh, whoops. But let's not make companies accountable anyway. Same goes for the Sony story.

    Security guys are like accessibility guys in that they feel their area should be a major basic part of web development, but isn't.

  25. #25
    Robert Wellock silver trophybronze trophy xhtmlcoder's Avatar
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    Lee, the CCNA refresh/renewal historically is about every three years; I did do the CCNA course and passed with all four Certificates. Though I didn't think it was worth doing the CCNA Certified exam, which is just two practicals and two exams. All they do is just combine Semester (1 and 2) then (3 and 4) material. So you just get tested twice again [1-2], [3-4], on what you covered before, i.e. the previous 4 times [1, 2, 3 and 4] (4 course exams and 4 course practicals) to gain the 4 certificates. Yes, it would be expensive to take the actual CCNA Certified exam itself and keep it renewed.


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