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Thread: We've Attacked!

  1. #101
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    This is getting so far off topic, and so close to just an interpersonal debate that I'm going to ignore the above. Hope you don't mind, and I'm sure it'll only make you feel like I'm justifying your position.

    That's fine and doesn't bother me at all, hope you have a nice day.

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  2. #102
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Okay, so 3K Americans dying is the "worst atrocity of the century", but 8-12K Iraqi's dying (some sources say it could be higher than 110K) is "part of war"...

    Also, if this was about what Saddam had done in the past, then punish him for that. I didn't say those deaths were meaningless, in fact to me that's another reason why folk shouldn't go to war.

    To shed a little light, here's an entry from an Iraqi blog:

    No one inside Iraq is for war (note I said war not a change of regime), no human being in his right mind will ask you to give him the beating of his life, unless you are a member of fight club that is, and if you do hear Iraqi (in Iraq, not expat) saying “come on bomb us” it is the exasperation and 10 years of sanctions and hardship talking. There is no person inside Iraq (and this is a bold, blinking and underlined inside) who will be jumping up and down asking for the bombs to drop. We are not suicidal you know, not all of us in any case.
    I think that the coming war is not justified (and it is very near now, we hear the war drums loud and clear if you don’t then take those earplugs off!). The excuses for it have been stretched to their limits they will almost snap. A decision has been made sometime ago that “regime change” in Baghdad is needed and excuses for the forceful change have to be made. I do think war could have been avoided, not by running back and forth the last two months, that’s silly. But the whole issue of Iraq should have been dealt with differently since the first day after GW I.
    The entities that call themselves “the international community” should have assumed their responsibilities a long time ago, should have thought about what the sanctions they have imposed really meant, should have looked at reports about weapons and human rights abuses a long time before having them thrown in their faces as excuses for war five minutes before midnight.
    What is bringing on this rant is the question that has been bugging for days now: how could “support democracy in Iraq” become to mean “bomb the hell out of Iraq”? why did it end up that democracy won’t happen unless we go thru war? Nobody minded an un-democratic Iraq for a very long time, now people have decided to bomb us to democracy? Well, thank you! how thoughtful.
    The situation in Iraq could have been solved in other ways than what the world will be going thru the next couple of weeks. It can’t have been that impossible. Look at the northern parts of Iraq, that is a model that has worked quite well, why wasn’t anybody interested in doing that in the south. Just like the US/UK UN created a protected area there why couldn’t the model be tried in the south. It would have cut off the regimes arms and legs. And once the people see what they have been deprived off they will not be willing to go back, just ask any Iraqi from the Kurdish areas. Instead the world watched while after the war the Shias were crushed by Saddam’s army in a manner that really didn’t happen before the Gulf War. Does anyone else see the words (Iran/not in the US interest) floating or is it me hallucinating?
    And there is the matter of Sanctions. Now that Iraq has been thru a decade of these sanctions I can only hope that their effects are clear enough for them not to be tried upon another nation. Sanctions which allegedly should have kept a potentially dangerous situation in Iraq in check brought a whole nation to its knees instead. And who ultimately benefited from the sanctions? Neither the international community nor the Iraqi people, he who was in power and control still is. These sanctions made the Iraqi people hostages in the hands of this regime, tightened an already tight noose around our necks. A whole nation, a proud and learned nation, was devastated not by the war but by sanctions. Our brightest and most creative minds fled the country not because of oppression alone but because no one inside Iraq could make a living, survive. And can anyone tell me what the sanctions really did about weapons? Get real, there are always willing nations who will help, there are always organizations which will find his money sweet. Oil-for-Food? Smart Sanctions? Get a clue. Who do you think is getting all those contracts to supply the people with “food”? who do you think is heaping money in bank accounts abroad? It is his people, his family and the people who play his game. Abroad and in Iraq, Iraqis and non-Iraqis.
    What I mean to say is that things could have been different; I can’t help look at the Northern parts of Iraq with envy and wonder why.
    Do support democracy in Iraq. But don’t equate it with war. What will happen is something that could/should have been avoided. Don’t expect me to wear a [I heart bush] t-shirt. Support democracy in Iraq not by bombing us to hell and then trying to build it up again (well that is going to happen any way) not by sending human shields (let’s be real the war is going to happen and Saddam will use you as hostages), but by keeping an eye on what will happen after the war.

    To end this rant, a word about Islamic fundis/wahabisim/qaeda and all that.
    Do you know when the sight of women veiled from top to bottom became common in cities in Iraq? Do you know when the question of segregation between boys and girls became red hot? When tribal law replaced THE LAW? When Wahabi became part of our vocabulary?
    It only happened after the Gulf War. I think it was Cheney or Albright who said they will bomb Iraq back to the stone age, well you did. Iraqis have never accepted religious extremism in their lives. They still don’t. Wahabis in their short dishdasha are still looked upon as sheep who have strayed from the herd. But they are spreading. The combination of poverty/no work/low self esteem and the bitterness of seeing people who rose to riches and power without any real merit but having the right family name or connection shook the whole social fabric. Situations which would have been unacceptable in the past are being tolerated today.
    They call it “al hamla al imania – the religious campaign” of course it was supported by the government, pumping them with words like “poor in this life, rich in heaven” kept the people quiet. Or the other side of the coin is getting paid by Wahabi organizations. Come pray and get paid, no joke, dead serious. If the government can’t give you a job run to the nearest mosque and they will pay and support you. This never happened before, it is outrageous. But what are people supposed to do? thir government is denied funds to pay proper wages and what they get is funneled into their pockets. So please stop telling me about the fundis, never knew what they are never would have seen them in my streets.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  3. #103
    Mlle. Ledoyen silver trophy seanf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gybbyl
    If you think this war is about oil, then you are the one who obviously likes watching CNN
    I think one of the major reasons for this war and the US Government's insistence that it happens now is due to the strong position they will be in by taking control (whether full or partial) of the oil - oil for the world not for the US before Chris comes to tell me how much oil the US actually gets from this region

    One more thing, I've never watched CNN in my life

    Sean
    Harry Potter

    -- You lived inside my world so softly
    -- Protected only by the kindness of your nature

  4. #104
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanf
    One more thing, I've never watched CNN in my life

    Sean
    count yourself blessed...
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  5. #105
    Your Lord and Master, Foamy gold trophy Hierophant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    Well I haven't read that estimate, so it isn't as common of knowledge as you think. So I'd appreciate it if you could provide the source.
    I have heard that estimate on a myriad of news reports (MSNBC, FOX, NWI, AP, Reuters, ABCNEWS) and in different articles within newspapers in the last two weeks.
    Wayne Luke
    ------------


  6. #106
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Thanks Wayne, I'd heard it everywhere as well...

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  7. #107
    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    Hope you don't mind, and I'm sure it'll only make you feel like I'm justifying your position.
    No, I'm just sharing my opinions.

    :-D
    Ryan

  8. #108
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I was actually replying to Aspen, not you Your opinoins don't bother me, neither do most people's, it's just ... yeah, anyways, another topic

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  9. #109
    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    One more thing, I've never watched CNN in my life
    Then I commend you. Good man.
    Ryan

  10. #110
    public static void brain Gybbyl's Avatar
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    I was actually replying to Aspen, not you Your opinoins don't bother me, neither do most people's, it's just ... yeah, anyways, another topic
    Heh, alright, I just read my posts again and they seem to me too get a 'little frisky', sorry bout that, I just get riled up. :-D
    Ryan

  11. #111
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    IST 20:45 US cruise missiles slam into Baghdad, start fires Thursday night. Heavy anti-aircraft fire lights the skies as city rocked by explosions. Wave of 10 F-15 and F-16 warplanes took off from US military base in Qatar.

    1st Marine Expeditionary unit crosses into Iraq from Kuwait.
    IST 17:50 Two oil fields south and west of Basra have been torched by Iraq troops.

    US Marines ordered to advance from Kuwait into southern Iraq at speed to extinguish the blaze. Battles rage as Marines lay down artillery barrage to clear their path while coming under heavy fire themselves

    Allied aerial bombardment of Baghdad just resumed. All US units in Kuwaiti bases told to be ready to roll in full combat mode by 16:30 (IST 19:30)
    ... From intel sites.

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
    Personal blog: Strategerize
    Twitter: @jeremywright

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indian
    White House says war could be more longer and more difficult than expected! -BBC
    p r o p a g a n d a .... just to let people believe that US is fighting with some big force
    Moral of the Story: You want to keep us from attacking you, you'd better have a credible deterrent. - Noam Chomsky
    Where are chemical/biological/WMDS ??

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy W.
    Two oil fields south and west of Basra have been torched by Iraq troops
    rejected by Iraqis .... source our local tv channels
    Moral of the Story: You want to keep us from attacking you, you'd better have a credible deterrent. - Noam Chomsky
    Where are chemical/biological/WMDS ??

  14. #114
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    The above statements are from intel sources on the ground, and I can't verify their authenticity, nor do I. Just posting what the network's saying

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  15. #115
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    so if it's rejected by Iraqis, it must be truth right? America media always lies?

    How brainwashed are you?

    For the second time, change your signature to come in line with profanity guidelines. Now.
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  16. #116
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    Aaron, the opposite's true to, though

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  17. #117
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    I understand that, JEremy. But to come in here not giving any credit to American media outlets (seemingly DIScrediting them) in favor of Iraqi State-run media. Come on.
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by aspen
    [/i]
    In the gulf war Saddam used oil as a weapon and he's already started to do it again.
    why do you want only iraqis to play by rule .... when everything is fair for allieds in war ... even killing of thousands of civilians is fair ... then why not torching oil fields and destroying dams ... thats all they can use to resist ... what do you expect from them in response to b52, stealth firing death at them from skies and hundreds of miles aways from sea ??
    Moral of the Story: You want to keep us from attacking you, you'd better have a credible deterrent. - Noam Chomsky
    Where are chemical/biological/WMDS ??

  19. #119
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    ...and before I get flamed let me add....

    I know he didn't name Iraqi state-run media, but we all know that communiqes out of Iraq are coming from government sources. There is no freedom of the press there. When someone says "The Iraqis deny it", all that can possibly be assumed is that the Iraqi state, which does the bidding of Saddam, is saying that.
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  20. #120
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    I'm not taking any sides. I don't discredit CNN, but if I doubt something, I'll check it somewhere else as well. I try not to discredit anything based purely on where it's coming from.

    Try anyways.
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  21. #121
    Yugo full of anvils bronze trophy hillsy's Avatar
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    Liked the blog extract Jeremy. Reminder of the human faces on the other side of this war.
    that's me!
    Now A Pom. And a Plone Nut
    Broccoli Martinez Airpark

  22. #122
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    We've mirrored it on TP, since the original has been up and down...

    http://tinyplanet.org/iraqblog/
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  23. #123
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    Sure, but this is what I'm saying. Many sources are saying the oil wells are on fire. The Iraqis say differently. They are the only ones who say differently. Corroborate the reports at CNN, MSNBC, the BBC, the Guardian, heck...even the Paris News is saying it.

    In this case, I'm being objective. Taking the Iraqis at their word is NOT being objective.
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor



  24. #124
    SitePoint Wizard silver trophy Jeremy W.'s Avatar
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    You arguing with me? Are YOU arguing with ME?!

    I have no opinion, I just posted what I've collected from the intel sites. As I said earlier, all news coming out of Iraq is either filtered by Iraq, filtered by the US or made up by the US, so little is trustable...

    J
    SVP Marketing, SoCast SRM
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  25. #125
    Prolific Blogger silver trophy Technosailor's Avatar
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    ...or made up by Iraq.

    But yeah, my argument wasn't with you. I could see my point going away from my original point into a debate of who has truthful journalism and that was not my point.
    Aaron Brazell
    Technosailor




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