Yeah, ditto, except I've stopped using a header for that at all. Since the <title> tag was already taken, I've had to try this (which seems to work ok) for logos:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fre520
<p id="naam">Logo text and possibly tagline if it's short<span>(posisble image replacement)</span></p>
Usually after navigation then is my h1. Older pages don't have this, as the company name used to be the h1, but I think this is now the right direction.
I've been terrified to touch those as well. Once I went through a bank page and the tab index in the form made a question that visually next to question #2 come AFTER the submit button. I have no clue why.Quote:
Originally Posted by boen robot
There's a thread in the CSS section where a guy was told by his SEO guy to move everything, even the header, after the main content. Google wasn't finding their keywords. I thought that would be one of the most confusing setups anywhere: content, sidebar, sidebar, header with site nav, footer.
Arrow, Click, Arrow, Arrow, Click
Arror, Arrow, Click
And note that pressing a single key several times usually takes less time than pressing a different key once. Miliseconds of a difference, for sure, but when you add it up, the experience can start to get frustrating.
The sacrifice is that you're slighly increasing the time it takes to reach the content from the start. Assuming your "Skip to content" is the very first, after which is the navigation, users will have to
to get to the content, whereas otherwise they'd get it immediatly after the "Skip to navigation" link without doing anything. However, you get that penalty only once - when the content is first reached. If the user has accidently gone to a wrong page (a misplaced key press sequence, a misleading title, or simply a boring page), it won't take them additional time to get to the navigation and find their way around. If the navigation is at the bottom, and you're after the second navigation link, consider:
back-to-top-key(-combo), Arrow, Click, Arrow, Arrow, Click
back-to-top-key(-combo), Arrow, Arrow, Arrow, Click
Of course there may be some edge cases where the opposite might be more productive, like if you have just three navigation items, and assuming there's a go-to-bottom-key(-combo) (and I don't know if any mobile phone or screen reader has one)
go-to-bottom-key(-combo), Arrow, Arrow, Click
is just as efficient as
back-to-top-key(-combo), Arrow, Arrow, Click
while at the same time it eliminates the "Skip to content" penalty.
Still, for the majority of cases, it's probably not as good.
boen_robot, and it works the other way as well. If you force people with disabilities to have content read to them (as in the study shown way earlier in the thread) that many do, you are going to rapidly increase the amount of time it takes them to read the content (after having to listen to navigation on every page).
PS: I have just noticed you have contradicted yourself and have invalidated your entire statement. You initially stated that you wanted navigation before content, but having to scroll though navigation to read the content takes much longer and many more clicks than passing over a single “skip to navigation” link at the top (with navigation at the bottom which was my suggestion in the first place). If you honestly expect me to believe that having to scroll down past a single link (ignoring to read the content or clicking to read the navigation) will "double" the amount of time to do anything (against a full navigation list), you really need to do some genuine usability studies instead of making up false facts.
The point is, you don't have to scroll through the navigation to get to the content. Let's say you don't have a screen reader and so don't have any of the other ways of getting through the page. But still keyboard only. What's the difference betweenQuote:
You initially stated that you wanted navigation before content, but having to scroll though navigation to read the content takes much longer and many more clicks than passing over a single “skip to navigation” link at the top (with navigation at the bottom which was my suggestion in the first place)
* skip to site menu
*skip to content
Same skip link. Same number of clicks, assuming you are using the skip link.
Good point Stomme poes, there is no real difference which means that again we are left with positives and negatives for content before navigation or navigation before content. I will have a look for more usability studies to see perhaps if theres some more examination into the subject when I get a few spare moments. :)
And as far as screen reader users are concerned, the above mentioned usability study says the same thing about source order.
Where am I contradicting myself?
But if you force users to "Skip to navigation", you're doubling their time to reach the content.
The sacrifice is that you're slightly increasing the time it takes to reach the content from the start.
With the second, I'm referring to "the start of the current page" (maybe I should have said that explicitly... sorry), and with the first, I mean the time from the first visit to the site from whatever page - you'll be forcing users to click "Skip to navigation" on every page, even ones they KNOW are not the ones they are looking for (but know they need to click anyway, in order to reach the content; e.g. when the right page is in a subsection of your site and the sub menu is only exposed once you're in the subsection; or they simply don't remember the right location, and go to the right page by going to another page which they know contains a link to the right page). Skimming through any content, and reading the content are two different things if you ask me.
On a side note, remember disability accessibility is a legality in many cases - so screen reader support etc.
Slightly off-topic, or off-focus at least, but still...
My preference would be to having content before navigation on the basis that going by the idea of “nope this isn’t the page I wasn’t, *skip*” is much less out of place (for me) than “navigation being read out YET again *skip*” plus to me it feels more natural to have the list of places you could navigate too after you have finished reading the page (to follow through). In retrospect perhaps if you had the introduction block as I stated before, before the skip links you would be able to make a more informed choice if you wished to continue reading or if you would prefer to skip to the navigation to browse elsewhere.
- Logo – Make sure your users are aware they are still on your website.
- Introduction Panel / Tagline – Give the user an introduction to what the page of the site is about.
- Skip Links – Provide accessible users the method to jump down the page to the section they require.
- Content – Provide what the people who visit your website are after.
- Navigation – Provide this last so it is not repeated upon each load of a page, users can get here through skip links if required.
AlexDawson, I like your suggestion for the source order. Waiting to put the skip links until after something that summarizes the page makes perfect sense to me. I would just use the h1 of the page, however, which is the site's tagline on my homepage and the page "headline" on interior pages.
But this may not be necessary since the title of the webpage is generally whatever the h1 is followed by the sitename. Devbanana, if you're still following this, does JAWS read the page title for every page?
P.S. It's been a while since I started this thread but it has been very useful for getting me what I was after -- research-based or at least well-considered advice about best practice HTML source order taking into account SEO, accessibility and usability on a number of devices. Devbanana's perspective is particularly useful and fascinating! Thanks everyone.
And what would be the mark-up for such a thing? How would it be visually presented? Like the teaser for a blog post?
It would make use of a paragraph tag and be visually presented above the content.
Below are some websites which make use of them...
As you can see they are clearly in widespread use (some websites use general taglines for the whole site and I have seen independant ones for each page - which is in this case what I would recommend).
Both my JAWS copies read out the <title>, as well as immediately starts listing things like how many links and headers are on the page... I know it used to be, you had to ask for that, but it's become defualt (I'm sure you can turn it off).
So I've redone my titles from this:
<title>company name - contact</title>
<title>Contact page - Comapany name</title>
I still usually want the company/site name in the title, while the main part of the title is pretty much the same as the h1 for that page. Plus with small tabs you at least see the name of the page even if your tab cuts off the whole title.
Alex, I clicked one of your links, the sarah longneck thing, and don't see the p?? Or is that only on inner pages? I looked in source.
Stomme poes, in the sarah longneck website the paragraph is in the source as follows...
<p>That's right! I love to put together totally awesome videos. I'm technically proficient, easy to work with and I don't stop till it's perfect. So what are you waiting for?</p>
Some people used H1 tags or other ways of formatting the tagline however the point is that an overview of the page or site does have very real benefits in terms of usability (and in this threads purpose, accessibility).
No problem, I wanted to point people to what I was meaning by a tagline. They have gained popularity for a good reason which is that a summary of a page before going into the “meat” of the document does have some genuine benefit to the end user. :)
Alex, I think what you're talking about is an abstract, a summary, a prologue, or an intro. The tag line is a marketing slogan, meant to be catchy and closely associated with the product or service. For example, "Quality is job one" (Ford), "Progress is our most important product" (GE), "Better Things for Better Living … through chemistry" (duPont), and "The truth is out there" (The X-Files), are all well known tag lines.
From a marketing perspective, the tag line is probably more important than the logo, though not as long lived.
gary.turner, indeed that is what I was putting forward however in web design these abstracts have become commonly (even if wrongly) referred to as "taglines" possibly due to the separation between content, navigation and logo (being pushed somewhere in between).
The tagline, is been used for ages by marketing guys, to say something clever & attach the emotions of the brand to it.
However, for optimal ROI and usability, it's not recommended to use a clever tagline on your website.
One of my clients tagline is "your source of live" (it's a water cooler company, source of live = water".
Now take this tagline + logo alone without the website content.
You have Sip-Well ... your source of live
Does it say anything about what they do ? NO
Does it say what makes them special in their industry ? NO ...
so I came up with an other tagline, not the fancy arty marketing talk
just to the point & as clear as it can be.
Sip-Well ... the Belgian water cooler expert.
Does it say what they do ? yes ... water coolers
Does it show demographics ? yes ... they operate in Belgium
Does it say why they're special ? yes ... they're the specialist (& every piece of content on the website proves this)
guidelines for a good website tagline:
- a short sentence (6-8 words) that describes the characteristics of the company & what makes it good.
- clear & informative
- differentiating & showing an advantage (for the visitor)
- a tagline is not a motto ! a tagline should bring a value proposition
- personal, vivid, smart
I'm not claiming that the new tagline fulfills all the above criteria at all. We didn't had the time to spent a lot of effort on it. But it did say a lot more then the first one.
About the intro Alex talks about.
We call that the welcome blurb.
It's a short summary what the company does, what makes it good, what the extra value is for the customer. A bit like the tagline, but longer.
Don't mistake the word "welcome blurb" with the text you see on a lot of websites that goes like: welcome to our website. Putting that text on the website is one of the most stupid things you can do (imagine that you wouldn't be welcome).
Guidelines for a good welcome blurb:
- It's present on the home page, preferable in the viewport.
- it's not a mission statement
- it should be 30 words maximum
- should contain real content. (3000 products, 200 locations worldwide, specialised in ..., 24/7 support, etc ...)
I think calling it a welcome blurb is slightly inaccurate portrayel of what I was trying to get across what would be useful. I prefer gary.turner's naming convention of an abstract for the reason that a Blurb tends to refer to a promotional message (usually only on the front page) which on a website might seem like irrelevant spam and really about as valuable as a tagline (not much). Where as an abstract is by definition a brief summary declaring the most important points to emphasise what you are about to read, which seems to me much more professional and objective reasoning behind why someone should choose you over another company.
The abstract you're talking about, is just standard the first paragraph (sometimes 2 or 3) of a content page for me.
I'm just using the terms the experts used.
Don't know anymore in which book I read it, but it should be one of these: 'Don't make me think', 'A call to action', 'Webdesign for ROI', or one of Jakob Nielsen's books)
Anyway it's not about how it's called, it's about what it does, & we're on the same line about that.
Excellent thread. I wonder if someone can post a link to a website which has all preferred practices in place to get a good idea of how it all works?