But yes, I guess using latest technologies will help. Getting old I guess...:(
Most of the people I know of who are using Dreamweaver properly spend most of their time in code view.
The cold hard fact is, if I stop using Dreamweaver, I am losing all those great productivity tools that Dreamweawver offers me when it comes to using other Adobe products.
You have to see the trash this programmer was putting out here. It is obvious that he was incompetent and lazy when it came to designing websites. They have to come to my side not visa versa.
People still charge clients for tables generated from Dreamweaver? Really? Is that ethical? :)
I would argue that you're mixing design and implementation a little too closely in what you're saying. "Designs" are things done in Photoshop, Illustrator, pen and paper, etc. What if you designed mockup sites and passed them off to a coder to implement by hand? That's a pretty standard industry workflow, and it means the designers can focus on design and the coders can focus on code. There is definitely a stigma against using Dreamweaver to generate actual pages for websites. Most professors and all employers that I have had shun its use and stress the importance of hand coding. I'm with your boss 100% even if the reasoning is a little fuzzy. Making sites in DW instead of hand coding is a little 1990's.
Tell you what (and I have done this) .. I could sit down for an hour talk with your boss (and I am close enough to actually do it BTW) and I guarantee you would stop using tables instantly or you would be out the door. You see most company owners don't know (but they are learning quickly) that by creating these 1999 tabled monstrosities you are in fact excluding about 5% of your potential clients from using your website.
The users I am talking about are in fact non computer users. The amount of non computer web surfers is growing like wildfire and by using these * cough cough * wonderful 'slice and dice' Photoshop to Image Ready to Dream Weaver sites you are in fact shutting down your bosses ability to connect with potential clients!
Like I said before, I've done it many times .. all it takes is some intelligent words and reasons why their site is wrong and you would be amazed how fast a business owner changes staff.
So are you going to be with the new staff or the one that was given their walking papers?
You will find that Dreamweaver will serve you much better once you've mastered making pages in Notepad.
Or, to use an analogy - the artisan who learned his craft with hand tools and then added power tools to his repertoire to save time will always best the guy who started with the power tools and never learned the underlying fundamentals.
For the record - when I have used Dreamweaver I've never left code view - and it's one of my least favorite programs for that purpose - though I've heard wonderful things about Dreamweaver CS4 that have me curious about giving it a go.
The second reason is semantic. Although text reader browsers and spiders are getting smarter, they do have a more difficult time navigating tables.
This said, tables do have their place and pages where the designer has avoided tables where they clearly should have been used (for tabular data) get on my nerves just as much as layout tables. For example one useful behavior of tables is on print out - if you have a <thead> block most browers will repeat it for every page of the printout :)
Overall it's an issue of *right* tool for the job. There was a time when tables where the only reliable means of positioning graphics on a webpage. That wasn't their purpose back in the day of Netscape 2 and 3, but they worked and worked fairly well. CSS support has been flaky for a long time particularly due to Microsoft resting on their laurels and leaving IE 6 as the default browser for EIGHT years. Things are changing though. Keep in mind that if you turn in layout tables to most web firms today on your resume you will NOT get the job, or an interview for that matter.
I would say my workflow is a lot smoother since I started hand-coding in DW. And if its generating css in the html code then you're not adding css correctly either. Writing HTML is easy!
Now here is the fun part. I had similar problem with the designers I used to work with. They were using DW. My problem was exactly same as your programmer, lots of unnecessary codes injected by DW. That also increases the file size. Plus its always hard to understand somebody else's code. Eventually I told them I will code the HTML myself.
ASP Programmers do not do straight copy paste of html always. They change lot of tags to ASP tags so they can apply dynamic behavior.
I don't think its big of a issue using DW as long as you and your programmer understand each other. I would say talk to her, ask her how she like to have the codes. May be a small example would help there. Then try that way. After all its a group effort you know.
And btw, you should also learn to hand code. Lot of companies ask for that on job description.
I haven't used an editor in years, I find it much enjoyable by hand to help improve my skills and to master it.
Let me start by this, knowing how to hand code or knowing how to code with general languages you use is obviously very important, which I think every good web developer takes upon themselves to learn. With that said..Quote:
Originally Posted by shockbotkins
Tell me you're one of those who thinks their brave for using notepad; those guys crack me up. Text editors aren't like training wheels, more like sitting in a comfortable chair, you don't have to sit in one but why wouldn't you?
I don't see advantages, you only gain features.
Coding with notepad? Are you serious?
Well may be for people who like their keyboard very much. But, I like using the tools and the menus to make my work easier and faster.
After you learn a language (e.g. XHTML), use an IDE to code your file. Don't waste your time with notepad, metapad or any text editor. For PHP or Ruby, you will have to write most of your codes by hand. I am still waiting for the day when we can make PHP scripts by dragging and dropping, kinda like ASP.NET.
Visual Studio is actually a very good IDE, and you can download plugins to enhance it.
Discuss with your fellow programmers what your issues are, and figure out exactly what the issue is with dreamweaver (e.g. License Cost)
Also, Visual Studio can handle all kinds of files. It shouldn't be that bad. Spend few minutes learning more about it, and its tools.
There are several things to consider
--Different development tools produce different code style.
--Pure html has no Dreamweaver extensions.
--HTML and ASP should be kept separate.
That being said, yes, you can do development with Dreamweaver. After all, ASP is just text. So anything he does should not interfere with your html.
Just because he calls himself a programmer doesn't mean he is one. If he is comingling ASP and HTML, perhaps he needs to reconsider his programming style.
Visual studio does not force comingling of code. It's a developer's choice on how the code ends up.
you could change programmers....
What is appropriate for a student isn't appropriate for a master, and vice versa. Anyone who's starting on HTML et al would be well advised to start with Notepad so that you can see the consequences of natural mistakes.
After that color context editors are the way to go. In the terminal environment vi, vim and emacs are the way (though epic flamewars have been started as to which of the three is best), outside of it Notepad++, jEdit, or even Dreamweaver's code view are a major step up.
I use Dreamweaver's design view only as a check up on what I'm doing, and then only very rarely since up until CS4 it was using an older version of Opera to render things. As of CS4 it's using Webkit (or so I've been told).
Don't get me started on trying to fix someone's site with mixed languages of C# and VB.net, a botched config file, undocumented compiled components (from some amateur) and a bloated mess of "code-behind" and "code-beside".
Not to mention Vsual Studio is PIGGGGGGG SLOOOOOOW !
Classic ASP with an AJAX library is very lean and mean.
Are we talking asp . net here? Bc we're in the wrong forum if so
Dreamweaver has nothing to do with the programming language. It's basically just a glorified text editor.
To question an asp programmers knowledge of html (or even Dreamweaver for that matter) is absurd :rolleyes:
That's a single command in Vim:
So if your statement is true, there must be an equivalent feature in DW, but I can't find it. We use DW MX 2004, though. Perhaps it was added in a later version?Code:
I'm amazed that these arguments always seem to devolve into Dreamweaver or Notepad. There are lots of excellent HTML editors out there that have lots of extra "stuff" to help ease the pain of switching from a more complex programme such as built-in FTPs etc.
In the end though - whatever tool you use, you either code properly or you don't. The tool you use won't change that. If you're not using good coding practice (and it sounds like you may not be as it sounds like you're using tables for layout) then perhaps your boss should address that issue rather than the tool you use per se. Maybe restricting DW (since you already have it) to code view only would be a start.